OT: Guy Davis on Sandman Mystery Theatre

[thwhtGuardian]

We all know and love him for the distinctive look he gave the BPRD but did you know he had a crack at another iconic character? I know I certainly didn't know he had worked on the Sandman Mystery Theatre until I just came across the title on Comixology and let me tell you, it's fantastic!

His art is a little looser and scratchier than I'm used to seeing it, but it's still definitely his style.







So far they only have the first story arc up, but I'm looking forward for more.

[meorsomeone]

I got this years ago thinking it was part of Neil Gaiman's thing, and because of that expectation was kind of let down by it.
cut to a few years later when Guy was on his BPRD arc and it pops in my head that I had this so I went back and looked and it's actually not bad.
I'ts been out there so long that I doubt we'll see a sequil, I figure we'd have seen it by now.

like I said, not a bad comic though.

there's also the Nevermen (was that the title?), 2 books I believe but they are on moratorium so good luck finding them.
I found part 2 by chance one day and read it but It's obvious I missed a lot in the first book.
anyway....

[UnravThreads]

It's actually a spin-off from Sandman whilst also being a reboot of a classic hero (The Sandman). There's a little bit of a crossover between Gaiman's Sandman and SMT.

I've got two issues in floppy (#2 and #5), the first trade (#1-4) and the first story (#1-4) digitally. I'm absolutely a fan of Guy's art in it - yeah, it's looser and sometimes a little cruder, but I think he's AS good on SMT's initial arc (he doesn't do all of them, the second is by another artist) as he is a decade later on B.P.R.D., just slightly different. You can definitely see he has a good grasp of expressions, even if his faces aren't... entirely anatomically correct. You can tell Dian is pretty, but she doesn't look like an adult film star, if you get what I mean. Same with Wesley, he looks like he could be a real person.

As for a sequel? SMT was rebooted, albeit unsuccessfully, so it's not likely even in the 'wake' of the news that Sandman is getting a new story.

My only problem with SMT is the colouring is absolutely piss-poor. If you read the first arc, the colours are all over the place. And if you're sensitive to how races are depicted, well... you're in for a LOT of very, very dodgy Chinese men in the second arc (The Face). Second trade is nigh-impossible to get for a sensible price, so I'm waiting on ComiXology.

[thwhtGuardian]

Yeah, while reading Gaiman's Sandman I remember reading about this but never picked it up, and now I'm kicking myself a bit as it's a great noir comic and I would have loved to have picked it up every month back in the day as the cliff hangers are great.

The expressions are excellent, but what I really like are the differnt body types he gives women; they're not just a bunch of cookie cutter models with different hair colors and that's something that he also brought to BPRD. If I showed you pictures of Liz and Kate you'd still be able to tell them apart even if I cut off their heads, but if I did the same to say Mary Jane Watson and Jean Grey? I doubt many could easily tell them apart that way.

And yeah, I read on wikipedia that the depiction of the Chinese in the next arc and the supposed "coloring mistake". Still I'm hooked on the series and I hope the next issues are forth coming.

[UnravThreads]

By their clothing, yeah. But I think Liz and Kate do have similar figures. They're more 'natural' certainly, but I think the bigger difference is their clothing styles (Liz is - in Guy's comics, bar a few issues - always in B.P.R.D. gear, whereas Kate tends to just go for the ribbed turtleneck underneath a coat or jacket). That said, I'd say Kate is definitely bustier than Liz (this comes across quite often, I feel), and perhaps a little fuller in her figure. At least that's the impression I get.

I think Dian Belmont is a great character, too, and Guy Davis really, really nails her down in no time at all. Her looks, the way she moves and acts - it's just amazing how he manages to really bring her to life on the page.

[thwhtGuardian]

I don't know, even clothing aside I tend to think they have discernible differences in terms of body type; Liz tends to be more straight up and down where as Kate more rounded. It's a difference that you just don't see in most comic art and it's something that make me enjoy artists like Guy Davis and Mike Mignola.

[Kees_L]

I don't know, even clothing aside I tend to think they have discernible differences in terms of body type; Liz tends to be more straight up and down where as Kate more rounded. It's a difference that you just don't see in most comic art and it's something that make me enjoy artists like Guy Davis and Mike Mignola.

Well, I definitely think there'd be specific ways any artist or comic creator could be going about character rendition or development. Time and time again, for any character display or any matching up with however prior successes might be pressing any artists to be to repeat.
Like how a comics artist would inescapably know what they'd be after for any drawing, or what they would have needed in order to be accomplishing such, like how many examples or photo references they would have needed or how they would have bypassed or dodged any of their limitations in the process.
Which might be a deathtrap in itself, because if they'd do any such well, chances are that for it people would be wanting them to pull such off again and again!
I believe mr Mike talked on that a fair bit, like on his style or how well he'd feel himself to be on drawing school buses or horses. And girls too.

Whereas Guy Davis seems remarkable for really working out a stylistic approach for either the Marquis, or Sandman Mystery theater, or BPRD, because it doesn't only seem to be along his strengths or limitations, but more than that, it would seem conscious stylistic choices. Like him referencing lifelike or personal character rendition intricately, instead of referencing more rather generally current imagery, like sort of music video or advertising lipgloss girlyness, or booty poses or whatever, which could be chosen as renditions quite purposefully.

I think it isn't coincidental how mr. Guy's BPRD art would thrive on how characters would be to act within the panels, where mr Mike his Liz or Kate seems rendered much more sparingly or less directly sequential, but nonetheless quite as remarkable and as striking intricately.
Whereas mr Mike's Liz for instance will look elegant or female but not necessarily *amused* or nice per se. Where things like her wearing a beret or mascara or a neck-band or even just smoking a cigarette - not all the time, but for a casual reference, appears as *comic book gold* to me as a reader.
I bet Liz has spunk, like saying cusswords when she'd be meaning to, maybe even spitting on the floor, should it be called for. Which I think is just buff.
Plus there is the thing of Liz both as Kate mostly not being 18 anymore, nor either 22. Which needn't have them to seem or act like rustic or beat or bushed in any way. Because acting lively or brawny or ballzy will only be more there as notable for anyone past merely their youth.

Although looks will be just looks*, but in such a thing as comics as neededly visual, they can be made to work niftily, or either not - which'd be sort of a shame. Whereas looks or either comics will also be a thing as lying in the eye of the beholder, any of it could be to vary from person to person.
* Like people often ask me: "Dude, have you been working out or what!" Like I'd be looking tired or sort of sweatty all the time... And I tell them where to stick it.

But well, the bush I'd be beating around - as they say - would be this:
this very board has been telling or reassuring me that Kate Corrigan would be inspired or visually modeled after a noteworthy person as belonging to the Mignola entourage - or *Mignolaverse*, if you will.
A person who in person is most lively and striking, yet outgoing and endearing even. At least I thought so. Like Jacky Kennedy or Michelle Pfeiffer rolled into one, in a casual outfit like denim and a hoody sweater, going: "Cool, you kind of seem to like the same stuff I like!"
Which might be imaginary or grandstanding on my part, but even then, nobody can take that away from me .

[UnravThreads]

I don't know, even clothing aside I tend to think they have discernible differences in terms of body type; Liz tends to be more straight up and down where as Kate more rounded. It's a difference that you just don't see in most comic art and it's something that make me enjoy artists like Guy Davis and Mike Mignola.

But due to the nature of comic art - and let's not forget that Guy Davis is not the most consistent artist - those differences don't quite come across in their bodies. Kate definitely has a rounder face, Liz's is definitely longer. But as for their bodies? Well, it's hard to tell at times due to changes in their outfits, plus Liz is often seen in 'unflattering' clothes (her uniform always looks quite big on her) so it can be hard to tell. So yeah, Kate is definitely a bigger girl than Liz, but that comes across more via the face than the body.

It's only by comparing them when done by more "traditional"/cleaner artists like Tyler Crook that we really, really see those differences become more obvious - at least in my own opinion. A lot of the earlier appearances of Liz - Night Train, Hollow Earth, even Seed of Destruction - can largely be ignored for their character designs. To use a point from Kees' post, Mike draws Liz with a rounder face, and she's fairly pretty. This is also true for stories like War on Frogs #3 (WoF Epilogue in the Omnibus, IIRC) where Karl Moline draws her as rather pretty and slim. Yet when Guy Davis becomes the artist for B.P.R.D., Liz instantly becomes this plainer, perhaps even uglier, woman with a bit of a frumpy dress sense and even a slightly bigger figure. She stops being 'thin' or 'slim'. When Tyler Crook comes in - from what I've seen - Liz goes back a little to a little less traditional view of pretty, but her figure and dress sense seem to 'revert' to pre-Davis stuff. But I would say Davis is the defining artist for her, and his depiction is the 'best'. Why? Well, aside from drawing her the most, he really nailed her character with his design. She's supposed to look worn, drawn out, even... longer, because that suits her character, her history and so on. Kate, however, doesn't really change in any regard, and this is consistent between all artists.

[Kees_L]

To use a point from Kees' post, Mike draws Liz with a rounder face, and she's fairly pretty.

I never said quite such a thing in the slightest 'though.

What any point of mine would be conveying, is that a comic artist is gonna think and work consciously on what they'd be conveying, eventhough obviously any stuff may lie in the eyes of the beholder, the reader.
So the reader would be the interpreter, but the artist would be the one orchestrating the material, in a significant or conscious manner - because that'd be their skill: conveying stuff.

Although any comic may come about in its own way, it could be a publisher or editor dictating how any stuff should look as much as possible, or either a more creative approach would be followed, as by letting creatives themselves decide or simply let the work grow into becoming itself.

Hellboy and everything about it would seem to have come about purely as a creative endeavor, because a one creator would have defined and instigated it all, completely along his own preferences.
And characters such as Kate and Liz would have been fleshed out as such already, like in Seed of Destruction and Wake the Devil up to Conqueror Worm.

Although by the time of Conqueror Worm aidings or additions from other artists already began to becoming a thing, because despite it all being creator-owned and creator-made other people were allowed to help or add to stuff, even as merely by adding their renditions.
Duncan Fegredo or anyone could be making it possible to have stuff get conveyed, because eventhough mr Mike wouldn't feel his strength to lie in drawing love interests or epic worldly scenery or such - but with other artists rendering such - gotten aboard for making title expansions or growing numbers of stories possible at all - than all would be dandy.

Back to Liz- & Kate-renditions: I'd say mr Mike conveyed in his renditions that neither Liz or Kate would be just any women. Not typically docile or pleasing ladies not even for any beauty or femininity they'd be to possess. They'd be individuals, they could get angry or difficult for any getting taken for granted.
They wouldn't at any time be caught on the job as wearing skimpy dresses or Daisy Duke-style cut-off jeans. Maybe since Kate would mostly be 'being a professor' and not the youngest of the bunch. And Liz, she hardly seems the giddy life of the party and mr Mike drew her as wearing a beret.
If cut-off jeans spells something out than any real beret with mini-antenna spells something out as well. Same for the European-style Art Deco type of neckband I would think. I don't think Liz would necessarily have to be vegetarian or a man-hater, but, she is gonna be an individual. Set to a mind and way of her own, plus pretty much past any sort of adolescence or angst due to experience. Like an individual indeed.

I'd say that any other artists as coming aboard by invitation of mr Mike, onto effectively mr Mike his thing, my guess is they'll all be keeping mr Mike's initial creatings or renditions in mind, not literally, but they'd convey such in their own manner and by their own skill.
So mr Guy would draw Liz or Kate as them conveying to being an individual. And same for mr Duncan or Tyler or whoever.

I'd say that for any artists and whatever their skills, the casual however striking conveying of any characters their particulars, as intricately and particular as those for Hellboy or the BPRD comics would be, would for noone be an exact science or easy routine. Because it has to take as good as it can but no stories would wait or hold up for it.
Not for mr. Guy or mr. Duncan or mr. Mike - also since mr. Mike would seem to panel his pages not as either Guy or Duncan would, as in less panels or as with panels flowing uniquely. There aren't a ton of panels featuring Liz or much any character acting by him in for instance 'Seed', since the amount of panels would seem to somehow be so sparingly, or fully set to commanding the storyflow, I'd feel.

I'd say as comic titles Hellboy and the BPRD will be quite their own thing.
Although any of that would also be to lie in the eye of the beholder for a good bit.

[pimpernel]

I love this comic.

I remember stumbling across a few issues of the first arc in a grubby used book store when i was a teenager... i hadn't been interested in comics since i was a kid and i hadn't read Gaiman's Sandman... but the art stuck with me so later when i rediscovered comics at uni through Gaiman and Mignola i remembered this and managed to track down the entire run on eBay. Since then i even managed to get a few original pages from Guy.

It is hands down one of the best comics ever IMO.

I hated the reboot tho... i mean the reason SMT was so successful and popular was the relationship between Wes and Dian... fans were hoping to see that pick up where the original series left off and instead we got some new guy we didn't care about in a series set in the modern day.

I would love to see a SMT television series with HBO or something. Imagine Boardwalk Empire with added masks... it could be amazing.

Oh and i have to disagree about the colouring. I think it started off a bit poor in the earlier issues... especially the infamous chinatown arc where all the asian characters had bright yellow faces... but i thought that over the course of the series the colouring improved greatly.

[UnravThreads]

Oh and i have to disagree about the colouring. I think it started off a bit poor in the earlier issues... especially the infamous chinatown arc where all the asian characters had bright yellow faces... but i thought that over the course of the series the colouring improved greatly.

I should have specified that I was talking about the early issues ;)