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  1. #481
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quillero View Post
    i think they will get to stop a couple of villians
    but real change? never, and that goes for everyone
    nature of comics and stuff
    just fun to point out for the guy arrogant enough to think he knows better than chuck
    I doubt he'll bring about significant change, because frankly I think the X-Men books like things the way they are.

    But I do think if nothing else, they'll save a lot of lives. And that's the most you can ask for. Super heroes can fight bad guys... but they can't fight bigotry.

  2. #482
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Considering the fact that the issue basically ended right after Logan left, I'm not entirely sure Steve could do anything about it anyways even if he did know.

    Maybe he IS trying to do something about it as we speak. Or maybe he's off in space battling Kang while this is going on. We honestly have no clue at this point what Steve is doing or what Steve knows. There's no way we could know given that he's obviously not shown and the story ends right there. So at this point, there's no a whole lot to really criticize.
    I saw it as Steve asked Logan to visit Cyclops in the first Cons #1. Steve therefore sent Logan to Scott in the last Cons #4 issue after the killing, otherwise Logan wouldn't go, (both times).
    Visited NY and DC and saw Spider-Man Turn off the Dark.

  3. #483
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Guns killed a lot of native americas at one point in history... doesn't necessarily mean I think it's a good idea to ban guns. Not back then, and not now. No disrespect to the native americans who were shot and killed needlessly in the past, but I simply believe guns serve a practical purpose in the world we live in.

    A Sentinal is a weapon. It's no more or less evil than a F-15 or a hand grenade. What defines it is HOW it's used. A Sentinal like a knife or a gun or an air craft carrier can be used as an instrument of good just as easily as it can be used as an instrument of "evil."

    The problem isn't the Sentinals... it's the small body if idiots choosing to use them irresponsibly. Not having Sentinals doesn't change that... it won't make those people go away.
    Sentinels can also be used against all metas, not just mutants. Steve Rogers may see the Sentinals as F-15's, but they symbolize the backlash of the government against mutants, and just as easily could be directed against all metas. Sentinals seem to be the first line against mutants, so the intent is that Sentinals can can care of all metas. It's like building concentration camps with ovens may be used for burning garbage, but they can also be used for something else. The symbolism is just as important as the as the weapon. Military designed weapons are used for military purposes, and nobody complains about that. Sentinels have a stigma surrounding them that can't be divorced from the experience of the mutants.
    Visited NY and DC and saw Spider-Man Turn off the Dark.

  4. #484
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    I didn't really read Zero Tolerance so it's sort of hard for me to say exactly. But if the government acted in an unlawful manner in Zero Tolerance, then I do think Steve would have an obligation to do something about it, provided he knew about it and was available.
    It's a pretty harsh read, so it's worth getting the trade to check it out. Yes, Bastion was manipulating the Event, and it puts a cloud around how culpable the government becomes when a future intelligence has control of the situation, but the government had a responsibility to intervene and stop the Sentinels.
    Visited NY and DC and saw Spider-Man Turn off the Dark.

  5. #485
    Elder Member jackolover's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Personally, my guess is that he'll be helping to save mutant kind along with the rest of the Uncanny Avengers by the end of their first arc, so I'm not going to share that conclusion just yet.

    If you're arguing he's not going to be able to help or save every Jake in the world, I don't disagree. Xavier couldn't do it. Scott couldn't do it. Steve won't either. That's never how things work in comics, or in the real world for that matter. But do I think in the end his efforts will have made a difference? Yes... I think that's the entire point of the Uncanny Avengers book.
    Do you see it different to the Heroic Age when Steve took over, and the Avengers dismantled the Dark Reign and set up the two Avengers teams and the Academy, and made the SHRA go away, thus removing any impediments to free association of the Avengers?

    In the Heroic Age Superheroes book, Cap goes into a trance dreamworld and is given 8 descriptions of heroism - power, conscience, responsibility, wisdom, courage, determination, free will, and limitations. At no time does Cap entertain that he has to get the mutants to be part of the Avengers, just that he invites them to join. But as they haven't joined the Avengers, he is suspicious of the X-Men.

    Then Cap orchestrates the POTUS to give Cyclops the Medal Of Freedom that demonstrates the authenticity of mutants as super heroes. But Cyclops consequently throws it away, because he didn't want humans to put such great expectations on him. This basically rejects Caps request for the mutants to come out into the light.

    Their next encounter is during a jail break fiasco where the Avengers and mutants help to contain escaped prisoners, but because Hope is threatened, Cyclops abandons the Avengers, prompting Cap to note that the mutants don't have humanity as their first priority. It is here that the divide is probably most pronounced, and you have to wonder how it got to this?

    On the one hand, Steve Rogers had all the optimism of the beginning of the Heroic Age, and on the other hand Scott Summers was less optimistic, still stuck with the stigma of having to sustain a race on the edge. This prompts Cap to state that the world is now a dangerous place, probably because the mutants don't come out into the light.

    It's not until after AVX that anyone addresses the divide between the Avengers and the mutants, and as we see, the mutants are not treated like the Avengers coming into the light in the Heroic Age.
    Last edited by jackolover; 11-04-2012 at 06:21 AM.
    Visited NY and DC and saw Spider-Man Turn off the Dark.

  6. #486
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackolover View Post
    Sentinels can also be used against all metas, not just mutants. Steve Rogers may see the Sentinals as F-15's, but they symbolize the backlash of the government against mutants, and just as easily could be directed against all metas. Sentinals seem to be the first line against mutants, so the intent is that Sentinals can can care of all metas. It's like building concentration camps with ovens may be used for burning garbage, but they can also be used for something else. The symbolism is just as important as the as the weapon. Military designed weapons are used for military purposes, and nobody complains about that. Sentinels have a stigma surrounding them that can't be divorced from the experience of the mutants.
    Steve doesn't appear to see Sentinals as F-15 because based on his statements about it, he's worried about them too.

    I think Stark see's them as F-15 though, and obviously based on my previous posts I think I do as well. As I said, a weapon is a weapon. A gun can be used against all meta's just as easily as a Sentinal. Doesn't mean I think because they have the potential to be harmful, it means we shouldn't have guns. I get that there are issues for symbolism, but I don't think that outweights the potential good something can do. I really don't. If I'm anyone... even a mutant, and I'm about to be killed by an invading army of skrulls, I don't care whether or not my life is saved by a Sentinal as long as it's saved. I don't care if the lives of my mother or brother or father or friends are saved by a Sentinal or not, as long as they are saved. What I care about is that it's something that actually works.

  7. #487
    Veteran Member Juggernaut Punch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Steve doesn't appear to see Sentinals as F-15 because based on his statements about it, he's worried about them too.

    I think Stark see's them as F-15 though, and obviously based on my previous posts I think I do as well. As I said, a weapon is a weapon. A gun can be used against all meta's just as easily as a Sentinal. Doesn't mean I think because they have the potential to be harmful, it means we shouldn't have guns. I get that there are issues for symbolism, but I don't think that outweights the potential good something can do. I really don't. If I'm anyone... even a mutant, and I'm about to be killed by an invading army of skrulls, I don't care whether or not my life is saved by a Sentinal as long as it's saved. I don't care if the lives of my mother or brother or father or friends are saved by a Sentinal or not, as long as they are saved. What I care about is that it's something that actually works.
    And 9/10 that thing is going to be used to kill mutants. In all possible futures, building Sentinels never turns out well and they've pretty much only ever been used to hunt mutants. Its like giving Sentinels to Hitler. Sure, he'll probably use them to fight off an alien invasion, but chances are that if you're not Aryan, you're getting terminated. The US government and every other mad scientist that gets their hands on a Sentinel have proven themselves again and again as willing to use them on mutants, innocent or not.

    It'd only be barely acceptable if someone like Stark or Cap got control of them. They're moderately heroic and non-genocidal.

  8. #488
    Elder Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Where was it shown that Steve is monitoring Cyclops 24/7? Cause if that's the case, I think he's got a bit too much free time on his hands.
    Issue 3, on the monitors. He had his own S.H.I.E.L.D. people monitoring Cyclops there too. It's also why Cyclops had to use metal filings to communicate with the outside so they wouldn't know what he was doing.

    In fact, the end of the issue Cyclops says "I'm not going to let them turn me into a criminal". They wanted him to escape.
    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 11-04-2012 at 04:50 AM.

  9. #489
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut Punch View Post
    And 9/10 that thing is going to be used to kill mutants. In all possible futures, building Sentinels never turns out well and they've pretty much only ever been used to hunt mutants. Its like giving Sentinels to Hitler. Sure, he'll probably use them to fight off an alien invasion, but chances are that if you're not Aryan, you're getting terminated. The US government and every other mad scientist that gets their hands on a Sentinel have proven themselves again and again as willing to use them on mutants, innocent or not.

    It'd only be barely acceptable if someone like Stark or Cap got control of them. They're moderately heroic and non-genocidal.
    They probably will end up being used to kill mutants, because really that's how comics work. And it's why Steve is worried about them being used again.

    All I am saying is that Sentinals aren't actually the problem. They can be used for good or for ill... it's entirely dependent on the people using them. Would it practically speaking any better if they used Guardsmen armor to kill mutants instead? If they did, should the government stop making Guardsmen armor? What if they just use machine guns? After that should machine guns be banned too?

    As I said, there's a simply practical need for things like Sentinals, Guardsmen armor, and machine guns in the world they live in. There's a need for the government to have weapons to battle metahumans who pose threats to humankind. The downside is that yes... such weapons can be used by people in government who are bigoted against mutants. I just don't agree that this alone is enough reason not to have them. You can say they should just not use Sentinals but again, if Sentinals aren't around in theory those people would just use something else.

  10. #490
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    Issue 3, on the monitors. He had his own S.H.I.E.L.D. people monitoring Cyclops there too. It's also why Cyclops had to use metal filings to communicate with the outside so they wouldn't know what he was doing.

    In fact, the end of the issue Cyclops says "I'm not going to let them turn me into a criminal". They wanted him to escape.
    The problem is you don't know any of that is true, because the book doesn't say that.

    That could simply be a recording from the prison that Steve requested SHIELD get a copy of. We don't know based on that tape that he's being monitored 24/7, or do we know Steve or SHIELD are actually the ones monitoring him. That's something you can choose to assume, and you could theoretically be correct ... but that's not what the book actually states. So I don't think you can criticize Steve for what he does or doesn't know since we don't know your assumption to be true or not.

    For what it's worth, I actually kind of doubt he's being monitored 24/7 that closely. If he was, and they saw him removing metal filings from his show and writing the word "NOW" on the floor, a LOT of people would be freaking out at the moment. You don't think if Steve is sitting there watching him write that on the floor with metal shavings, it's frankly an obvious clue on what's going to happen next?

  11. #491
    Elder Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The problem is you don't know any of that is true, because the book doesn't say that.

    That could simply be a recording from the prison that Steve requested SHIELD get a copy of. We don't know based on that tape that he's being monitored 24/7, or do we know Steve or SHIELD are actually the ones monitoring him. That's something you can choose to assume, and you could theoretically be correct ... but that's not what the book actually states. So I don't think you can criticize Steve for what he does or doesn't know since we don't know your assumption to be true or not.

    For what it's worth, I actually kind of doubt he's being monitored 24/7 that closely. If he was, and they saw him removing metal filings from his show and writing the word "NOW" on the floor, a LOT of people would be freaking out at the moment. You don't think if Steve is sitting there watching him write that on the floor with metal shavings, it's frankly an obvious clue on what's going to happen next?
    He was quite subtle when he did it. Also it was at night time and I don't think anyone would make a fuss if they saw crazy Summers playing around or drawing with what basically was dust. Prisoners scratch walls too sometimes.

  12. #492
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    He was quite subtle when he did it. Also it was at night time and I don't think anyone would make a fuss if they saw crazy Summers playing around or drawing with what basically was dust. Prisoners scratch walls too sometimes.
    We'll have to agree to disagree there.

    If I were Steve watching Scott on a monitor (something I personally don't agree he does 24/7 but let's say he was for arguements sake), and I saw him pull out metal shaving he was hiding in his shoe (those 2 facts alone would be a HUGE red flat) and writing the word "now" on the floor, I would be preparing for trouble. I as Cap would assume EXACTLY what every single reader was using when they saw that scene.

  13. #493
    Elder Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    We'll have to agree to disagree there.

    If I were Steve watching Scott on a monitor (something I personally don't agree he does 24/7 but let's say he was for arguements sake), and I saw him pull out metal shaving he was hiding in his shoe (those 2 facts alone would be a HUGE red flat) and writing the word "now" on the floor, I would be preparing for trouble. I as Cap would assume EXACTLY what every single reader was using when they saw that scene.
    I doubt anyone one could read what he was writing on the floor via a camera in that light. It was 8 bits of prison. Also the first time he did it, he drew basically gobbldygook. That would have thrown them off. If anything the person monitoring would have thought that he's trying to keep sane by drawing.

  14. #494
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExodusCloak View Post
    I doubt anyone one could read what he was writing on the floor via a camera in that light. It was 8 bits of prison. Also the first time he did it, he drew basically gobbldygook. That would have thrown them off. If anything the person monitoring would have thought that he's trying to keep sane by drawing.
    Is that what you assumed when you saw him do it? Me neither. Which is part of the reason why I have doubts Steve would assume that if he were watching this (though again, I'm skeptical of your idea that Steve's watching this 24/7 anyways).

  15. #495
    Elder Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Is that what you assumed when you saw him do it? Me neither. Which is part of the reason why I have doubts Steve would assume that if he were watching this (though again, I'm skeptical of your idea that Steve's watching this 24/7 anyways).
    Well we saw them looking at the monitors immediately after he drew that on the floor via the monitors and only Wolverine said that he was up to something.

    If AvX has shown us anything it's that Steve Rogers IQ drops about 50 points from time to time.

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