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  1. #226
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackdaw53 View Post
    My feeling is that if we actually did move to a continuity where Flash was many, many times faster than Superman that eventually there is an impact on Superman stories. Because, for example, in JLA stories Flash would always be called for raw speed feats, as well as speed finesse. And... because speed is the power that trumps all others.... that Flash ends up dealing with more powerful foes, and more threatening situations than Superman.

    I see what you mean,I don't actually agree with you, but I see what you mean.....but you've only talked about what could happen in a team book. Like I said before this will have absolutely zero effect on Superman in his books.

    Also I honestly think speed is not the ultimate power in anyway shape or form. It's a very very good power yes but not the best if you ask me. Also there are just going to be things that Flash can't do that Superman can.....like fly in space or if it's a big bad that only Superman has faced before. Powers don't decide a comic (Team book or otherwise).


    Idk if your a Morrison fan but if you read his JLA (90's) then you can find a Flash that was way faster than Superman at the time.....but it didn't stop Superman from putting the moon back into orbit, wrestling an angel,with standing the soul shattering light of heaven without a problem, beating a martian, inspiring a whole planet to fight a death weapon, then destroying that death weapon.


    You just have to have the imagination to use the character.....that's what we depend on the writers for. Also at this point the gap in their speed doesn't really seem that large at all and Superman can compensate for it with the use of his senses and some good old fashion brain power and creativity (JL #2....and Superman's whole comic book life). I think he's good.

  2. #227
    Senior Member G. Boney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    The holding back thing to me is a rather cheap and unnecessary compromise. The way I look at it is Barry is faster than Superman, period. Not because Superman is holding back, but because he's just plain faster. That's his thing. I don't think Superman should be able to break the time barrier either. And that's not a question of being over or under-powered or whatever, rather the fact that time travel is such a slippery slope as it is as a plot device, I don't like the idea of Superman having that easy access to it.
    Yeah it's silly. If Supes can end a fight quickly by not holding back and thus saving lives and property damage, it would be stupid to hold back.
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  3. #228
    Tactile Telekinesis stephens2177's Avatar
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    i would almost agree with the "zero effect" arguement,but for the fact that they exist in a shared umiverse.means things a character in one boom does in some way or another effect all of them,even if it isnt apparent.

    I dont have a problem with flash being faster,as in two steps ahead,where superman an almost catch him while he is reaching out for him,but the rebirth geoff johns barry blowout was and will always be BS.i understand that book was barrts welcome back book,and i get he needs to be the star,and look awesome,but to have him stay a step ahead of wally in every panel,and to disrespect superman like he was absolutley nothing to barry was trashy imo.

    Superspeed and telepathy are battle board members favorite go to unbeatable powers,and yeah in a actual story context it wont always work that way,but when ppl say superman cant even catch him,and barry can do what he wants to him cause he is soooo much faster is BS.

    Oh and of course superman doesnt need to be even close to how powerful as he is to have good stories,thats obvious to all,but superman stands for many things,and he is many things,and being the most powerful being is one of them.if you think we should or could depower superman ,then it better be across the board,every character better get the same action,singling superman out is like reverse heroism( like rascism) and shouldnt be allowed.

  4. #229
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephens2177 View Post
    i would almost agree with the "zero effect" arguement,but for the fact that they exist in a shared umiverse.means things a character in one boom does in some way or another effect all of them,even if it isnt apparent.

    I dont have a problem with flash being faster,as in two steps ahead,where superman an almost catch him while he is reaching out for him,but the rebirth geoff johns barry blowout was and will always be BS.i understand that book was barrts welcome back book,and i get he needs to be the star,and look awesome,but to have him stay a step ahead of wally in every panel,and to disrespect superman like he was absolutley nothing to barry was trashy imo.

    Superspeed and telepathy are battle board members favorite go to unbeatable powers,and yeah in a actual story context it wont always work that way,but when ppl say superman cant even catch him,and barry can do what he wants to him cause he is soooo much faster is BS.

    I completely understand the idea of a shared universe and I can see where you are coming from but I still gotta ask.......what meaningful effect would it have on either book? It's not like Superman is going to say something like "man I wish I were the Flash right now" or if Superman were faster Flash would be like "man I wish I were Superman right now". That would make no sense and wouldn't developed either story at all.

    If Superman is doing a speed feat....then he's doing a speed feat. He's not thinking about anything else aside from doing that feat and saying the day. I just can't see how if Flash were a few steps faster or a hundred steps faster would effect a book that's not even his. I think it's all just fan pride really.

    Could you maybe give an example of how Flash being faster than Superman would effect his book's story in any meaningful way?

  5. #230
    Senior Member jackdaw53's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    If Superman is doing a speed feat....then he's doing a speed feat. He's not thinking about anything else aside from doing that feat and saying the day. I just can't see how if Flash were a few steps faster or a hundred steps faster would effect a book that's not even his. I think it's all just fan pride really.

    Could you maybe give an example of how Flash being faster than Superman would effect his book's story in any meaningful way?
    In practice, you're right because of one of the "laws" of super hero comics: "Any hero is fast enough, strong enough, strong willed enough, etc to do whatever needs doing to save the day in his solo comic". The effects of any strong imbalance in powers is only going to surface in team comics.

    But turning it round: how does it undermine the Flash if it's established that Superman can travel through space faster than the Flash can run?? (And, incidentally, that could be profoundly useful for some story lines.)

  6. #231
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackdaw53 View Post
    In practice, you're right because of one of the "laws" of super hero comics: "Any hero is fast enough, strong enough, strong willed enough, etc to do whatever needs doing to save the day in his solo comic". The effects of any strong imbalance in powers is only going to surface in team comics.

    But turning it round: how does it undermine the Flash if it's established that Superman can travel through space faster than the Flash can run?? (And, incidentally, that could be profoundly useful for some story lines.)

    Never did I said that it would undermine Flash if he were faster in space.

    But at the same time making him faster than the Flash in space wouldn't do much for Superman because he's not saying "well it's lucky that I'm faster than the Flash in space". We would have no way of knowing that Superman is faster in space unless he said or thought that......but in the end what would that do aside from take a meaningless shot at that Flash.......just like Flash and his Rebirth bit ("those were for charity") only Superman wont even be saying it to Flash's face.


    Now if Superman was shown to fly faster in space than on earth then that would have story applications.....and you know what that's what's been shown so far in the new 52. He seems to be faster in space than on earth....and the thing is we still don't know if he's faster than Flash in space or not (we likely never will) because it has nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with his story in his book at all.


    I just don't see the appeal of that in their respective books.

  7. #232

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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I completely understand the idea of a shared universe and I can see where you are coming from but I still gotta ask.......what meaningful effect would it have on either book? It's not like Superman is going to say something like "man I wish I were the Flash right now" or if Superman were faster Flash would be like "man I wish I were Superman right now". That would make no sense and wouldn't developed either story at all.

    If Superman is doing a speed feat....then he's doing a speed feat. He's not thinking about anything else aside from doing that feat and saying the day. I just can't see how if Flash were a few steps faster or a hundred steps faster would effect a book that's not even his. I think it's all just fan pride really.

    Could you maybe give an example of how Flash being faster than Superman would effect his book's story in any meaningful way?
    It depends on how the Flash is described as faster. If it's in a footrace, Flash will win becuase he is faster than Superman, there is less effect than if they establish that Flash can run at Xspeed and therefore Superman is limited to moving slower than that. For example saying that traveling in time under your own power requires going faster than light and the Flashes are the ONLY ones that fast affects Superman by giving him a limitation.

  8. #233
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    It depends on how the Flash is described as faster. If it's in a footrace, Flash will win becuase he is faster than Superman, there is less effect than if they establish that Flash can run at Xspeed and therefore Superman is limited to moving slower than that. For example saying that traveling in time under your own power requires going faster than light and the Flashes are the ONLY ones that fast affects Superman by giving him a limitation.

    I agree with that but no such limitation has been put in place yet....but I agree with that. I don't think they will ever really limit how fast Flash can move so I think we're good and Superman has room to run so to speak.

  9. #234
    Senior Member jackdaw53's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Never did I said that it would undermine Flash if he were faster in space.
    Apologies, careless wording on my part.

    I actually accept your arguments suggesting that Flash's speed relative to Superman has no impact on Superman stories. What I was trying to suggest is that exactly the same logic applies "the other way round". Namely, If Superman does do the odd speed feat that Flash can't match... then it has no impact on the Flash solo comic, and doesn't undermine Flash in any way.

    I suspect that you agree with that?... but its not a sentiment shared by all (or many at all??) Flash fans.

  10. #235
    Senior Member greatmetropolitan's Avatar
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    50-75% of the speed of light would be plenty, able to get anywhere on Earth in less than 1 second. Flash should be 99-100% of lightspeed, making any races no contest.

    Add this to bench pressing the planet, numerous vision and sense abilities and off the scale invulnerability and Superman is plenty powerful.
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  11. #236

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    Quote Originally Posted by greatmetropolitan View Post
    50-75% of the speed of light would be plenty, able to get anywhere on Earth in less than 1 second. Flash should be 99-100% of lightspeed, making any races no contest.

    Add this to bench pressing the planet, numerous vision and sense abilities and off the scale invulnerability and Superman is plenty powerful.
    Except a space-faring Superman needs to be able to exceed lightspeed to get anywhere (4 years to Rann at lightspeed, don't want to guess how long to Colu, Lexor, Valeron, or Warworld)

  12. #237
    Senior Member greatmetropolitan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    Except a space-faring Superman needs to be able to exceed lightspeed to get anywhere (4 years to Rann at lightspeed, don't want to guess how long to Colu, Lexor, Valeron, or Warworld)
    The decision needs to be made between lip service to realism - FTL Superman and Flash could do anything and solve every problem single handed - and the fantastic. I don't mind Superman having a Kryptonian spacecraft or something to get to Rann etc.
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  13. #238
    Tactile Telekinesis stephens2177's Avatar
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    If flash and superman are racing in JL,flash,or superman,and superman saying he has to hold back considerably to not destrioy the enviroment,but still in reaching distance to barry,now go to superman in his own book ,flying in space and mentioning how he doesnt have to hold back and that he is a lot faster in space than on earth,that would beproof without mentioning barry,just knowijg he was racing barry with limitations,and now letting himself open up in space and saying as much,thisbis how it means something.

  14. #239
    Senior Member Maestro's Avatar
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    I've always thought super speed should be removed from Superman's power set! It makes him too powerful

  15. #240
    Junior Member scotcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maestro View Post
    I've always thought super speed should be removed from Superman's power set! It makes him too powerful
    I feel like that too. When a character has too many powers, the sense of jeopardy lessens. Where's the danger if he's automatically the most powerful one on a team/in a fight?

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