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  1. #211
    Senior Member Coyote2010's Avatar
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    It just made Barry seem snotty, who knows what its like to come back from the dead, and out of character.

    Millers Batman take down was huge and original, served the story... Anyways not fair comparing Rebirth and Dark Knight... Different times, and all...

  2. #212

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    Parts of that takedown seemed self-indulgent, like a fanboy who always wanted to see Batman beat Superman wrote it.
    People who chime in on vs. threads with "I don't like Superman at all, but he'd win.", STOP HELPING! Superman doesn't need your damning him with faint praise, thank you.

  3. #213
    Senior Member G. Boney's Avatar
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    Flash should be the fastest, IMO. Supes doesn't have to be better at everything than every other hero.
    "Moving to Dakota to avoid superheroes is like moving to Quantico to avoid the FBI." -- Dwayne McDuffie

    My comic: https://www.facebook.com/pages/MYTH-...31161003585134

  4. #214
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote2010 View Post
    It just made Barry seem snotty, who knows what its like to come back from the dead, and out of character.

    Millers Batman take down was huge and original, served the story... Anyways not fair comparing Rebirth and Dark Knight... Different times, and all...

    Yeah absolutely, it just let us know that Barry was sandbagging this whole time and he's sort of a jerk. But Millers Dark knight was (ironically) much more tasteful IMO, because it took bits of Superman's personality from his past that would make you think that he was this government lapdog. It also used it to tell a story that couldn't really happen otherwise. Batman beating Superman but still dying at the end had it's reasons to be there too.


    But yeah like most good comics Millers Dark knight had fanboy stink all over it........just look at All Star Superman, in there Grant lets us know that Superman is stronger than the strongmen of history......such a fanboy

  5. #215
    Senior Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Batman beating Superman
    You have to be careful with how you word things - here, it can be construed that you're saying that Batman physically beat Superman, which isn't what happened. Batman had a 'win of intent'. The actual 'fight' was more like a 5 year old (Batman) 'fighting' with an adult, headbutting the adult in the crotch, causing some discomfort, gleeful about 'beating' the adult before promptly knocking himself out/falling asleep through exhaustion.


  6. #216
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    You have to be careful with how you word things - here, it can be construed that you're saying that Batman physically beat Superman, which isn't what happened. Batman had a 'win of intent'. The actual 'fight' was more like a 5 year old (Batman) 'fighting' with an adult, headbutting the adult in the crotch, causing some discomfort, gleeful about 'beating' the adult before promptly knocking himself out/falling asleep through exhaustion.


    If you're that 5 year old.......a win is a win lol

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kizmet View Post
    Yeah, but I'm inclined to think that has little to do with Superman's powers, it's about the sort of person he is.
    It has to do with both his power and the person he is. It's easy to be nice when you're not that important or powerful and it's easy to be a jerk when you're the toughest kid in campus.

  8. #218
    Tactile Telekinesis stephens2177's Avatar
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    Flash is the fastest man alive..on earth,that could never be in doubt.superman is a force of nature,everything he does could destroy he earth(strength,speed,heat vision,etc),so he knows the danger of to much power,be it his, a crooked businessman,or a evil god,he knows what power can do if used wrong or irreponsibly,and thats why he give himself limits and lives by codes,like not kiling.

  9. #219
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    The holding back thing to me is a rather cheap and unnecessary compromise. The way I look at it is Barry is faster than Superman, period. Not because Superman is holding back, but because he's just plain faster. That's his thing. I don't think Superman should be able to break the time barrier either. And that's not a question of being over or under-powered or whatever, rather the fact that time travel is such a slippery slope as it is as a plot device, I don't like the idea of Superman having that easy access to it.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 11-03-2012 at 09:04 PM.

  10. #220
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    What does saying that he could be faster than Flash off earth actually do for his stories? Flash isn't there in Superman's to even be compared to him and Superman is still fast enough on earth to do pretty much anything he needs to do outside of beat Flash (who, again, is not in his book). So then how does Superman being faster or slower than Flash actually effect his book at all?

  11. #221
    Quickkill GM DiceRoll's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote2010 View Post
    I agree about that Rebirth moment and think the Roberson scene from Grounded is closer to the mark in characterization and execution. That Flash scene for me is just another echo from the Frank Miller Batman Beatdown in Dark Knight Returns... Every hero got to slap Superman around once to make up for his Bronze and Silver Age dominance.

    The one I disagree most with is WW slitting his throat like a hog... Just like the rebirth scene, did nothing for either character.
    Wait...what? Why?

  12. #222
    Tactile Telekinesis stephens2177's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    What does saying that he could be faster than Flash off earth actually do for his stories? Flash isn't there in Superman's to even be compared to him and Superman is still fast enough on earth to do pretty much anything he needs to do outside of beat Flash (who, again, is not in his book). So then how does Superman being faster or slower than Flash actually effect his book at all?
    Its not about effect,its about who they are,flash is the fastest man,and superman is the most powerful,just like hercules has been considered the strongest,but other gods can still match him in strength,even though they are known for somethijg else besides strength.
    In a team setting flash would be all abput speed and the use for it in the situation,even with superman there.

    Really neither of them need to be anywhere near light speed,it makes every villian/rogue,or dire sitiation less than nothing tonthese guys.

    Time travel should not na a part of either of their powersets,its a ridiculous PIS ability.

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    The holding back thing to me is a rather cheap and unnecessary compromise. The way I look at it is Barry is faster than Superman, period. Not because Superman is holding back, but because he's just plain faster. That's his thing. I don't think Superman should be able to break the time barrier either. And that's not a question of being over or under-powered or whatever, rather the fact that time travel is such a slippery slope as it is as a plot device, I don't like the idea of Superman having that easy access to it
    .
    I can get behind this.

  14. #224
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephens2177 View Post
    Its not about effect,its about who they are,flash is the fastest man,and superman is the most powerful,just like hercules has been considered the strongest,but other gods can still match him in strength,even though they are known for somethijg else besides strength.
    In a team setting flash would be all abput speed and the use for it in the situation,even with superman there.

    Really neither of them need to be anywhere near light speed,it makes every villian/rogue,or dire sitiation less than nothing tonthese guys.

    Time travel should not na a part of either of their powersets,its a ridiculous PIS ability.


    I thought it was about telling good stories? To tell a good Superman story I don't need to know how fast the Flash is....it makes no sense to me. In a Wonder Woman book Wonder Woman is the strongest and fastest hero around.....she's not like "well Hades, I'm pretty strong and fast....but you should see these other guys if you wanna know what speed is". In every heroes respective book they are the best. They are what's driving the story.

    Yeah I think Superman and Flash's races should be ambiguous and left to imagination and speculation....BUT that has nothing to do with the Superman story that I'm down to read because 9/10 times Flash (or any other hero) isn't in my Superman comic.

    I can't speak for anyone else but personally I'm reading comics for the story.....not to hold my hero above anther persons hero.

  15. #225
    Senior Member jackdaw53's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I thought it was about telling good stories? To tell a good Superman story I don't need to know how fast the Flash is....it
    I can't speak for anyone else but personally I'm reading comics for the story.....not to hold my hero above anther persons hero.

    I also read comics for the story. But, (I'd guess like nearly all of us), super hero comics is just one of the types of stuff I read. And when I read them I'm looking for something specific, something different to the sort of stuff I usually read.

    Part of that "something specific" is the blend and extent of powers each character is endowed with. And... for me... its also important (in a shared universe) how each character compares to each other. In a stand alone story where all the other characters were normal humans, anybody that could lift a ton, run at 40 mph, and have faster reaction time than most humans would be massively impressive. In DC or Marvel... that character would be "cannon fodder".

    My feeling is that if we actually did move to a continuity where Flash was many, many times faster than Superman that eventually there is an impact on Superman stories. Because, for example, in JLA stories Flash would always be called for raw speed feats, as well as speed finesse. And... because speed is the power that trumps all others.... that Flash ends up dealing with more powerful foes, and more threatening situations than Superman.

    I'm not really in the Superman "should be light speed fast, or time travel camp" anymore. Because that does limit the range of sensible stories. But... by the same token... I don't want Flash having those abilities either. I'd greatly prefer a DCU set up where all the characters had less extreme powers, and (shock, horror) where characters like Batman and Green Arrow really had a sensible power set. (A non meta wouldn't last a week with Batman's current life style.)

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