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  1. #196
    Senior Member jackdaw53's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Why does it matter if Flash is a bit faster than Superman? What does that actually do to any of the Superman stories? Is Superman gonna be like "man Lois guess you should have called out for the Flash to catch you from that fall cuz he's faster than me"....do we really think that's gonna happen?


    Or is Superman gonna not try as hard to race to a situation because he know Flash is faster? No. That's not Superman. To all the people on earth (including most heroes) Flash and Superman can't even be SEEN or tracked by most earthly tech!! Most if not all situations where they need to be fast enough to get somewhere will end in them getting there in time because it's a freakin comic book and it's Flash and Superman!!

    I don't see what Superman being faster than the Flash has to do with the well being of any of HIS stories other than him being able to say that he's that fastest.

    Or we can all say what this conversation really is......a "my hero is better than your hero" conversation. The two of them are friends and if trouble ever comes and it needs the fastest feet then I'm sure Superman would step out of the way and go with the sure thing. Or if it need someone to go to mars in the fastest time possible then Flash would be more than willing to let Superman take it (he can't fly).

    But in the end Superman being faster or slower than Flash has absolutely no effect of his stories at all and it wont effect my enjoyment of them.
    Logically I ought to agree with you. But deep down I don't.

    Probably because the Superman of my long distant youth was an out and out speedster, and it really was an open question whether or not he could run faster than Barry. Undoubtedly it was close, and I don't think anybody thought any less of Barry because Superman might have been a bit faster. Certainly I didn't, Barry was one of my favourite characters, and I accepted he knew more about "speed tricks" than Superman.

    But to be fair. I think very few Superman fans care whether or not Flash is a bit faster. What worries more, I suspect, is the suspicion that we might be heading towards a continuity where Flash is many times faster than Superman.

  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackdaw53 View Post
    But to be fair. I think very few Superman fans care whether or not Flash is a bit faster. What worries more, I suspect, is the suspicion that we might be heading towards a continuity where Flash is many times faster than Superman.
    I agree. Flash being faster than Superman is not the problem per se. But Flash being that much faster that Superman is a statue to him is a problem. The per-flashpoint Flash would own pre-flashpoint Superman in a fight and thats wrong somehow.
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  3. #198
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackdaw53 View Post
    Logically I ought to agree with you. But deep down I don't.

    Probably because the Superman of my long distant youth was an out and out speedster, and it really was an open question whether or not he could run faster than Barry. Undoubtedly it was close, and I don't think anybody thought any less of Barry because Superman might have been a bit faster. Certainly I didn't, Barry was one of my favourite characters, and I accepted he knew more about "speed tricks" than Superman.

    But to be fair. I think very few Superman fans care whether or not Flash is a bit faster. What worries more, I suspect, is the suspicion that we might be heading towards a continuity where Flash is many times faster than Superman.

    Honestly I know what you mean, I'm actually right there with you, and I'm glad you can see the logic in what I was trying to say. But really I could care less if Superman were faster, Flash were faster or if it were just up in the air (I guess I'd rather this if it came to it) but really it just has no effect on Superman's stories at the end of the day. He's still gonna save Lois in time, stop that bomb, save those kids, whatever. He's still gonna be Superman and it wont have any effect on the story that the writer is going to tell. Like if DC told Grant Morrison "ok Grant you can have Superman save that cat from the tree before it falls....BUT you absolutely can not have him move faster than 5 billion trillion times the speed of light.....because that's Flash's top speed and we want Flash as the fastest.....but yeah Superman can still save that cat"

    Really how fast do you think he's gonna need to go to save that cat while he's on earth? If anything else it's the ego of the fans that's being hurt....has very little to Superman it seems to me.

    I also really feel that this all just comes down to "my hero is better than your hero" or "my guy can beat you guy" talk. I feel like people are using comics like fantasy sports. Just using the books for stats then going to some stupid battle forum or vs thread and arguing with people over "who would win" in pro wrestling like fights.


    What does any of that have to do with your enjoyment of a comic book??? I just don't get it.

  4. #199
    Senior Member jackdaw53's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post

    What does any of that have to do with your enjoyment of a comic book??? I just don't get it.
    Good question. And I'll try to put together a logical argument to support my preference.

    First up its clear that we all have a preference for particular characters. And for me… as far as super hero comics go… that preference is mostly down to that characters personality, and their powers and abilities.

    I don't really care about names or costumes, and I regard it as self evident that practically all the longstanding icons (e.g. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc) have actually been different characters in different eras. And I feel its quite possible to really like a Batman (say) of a given era, while really not liking (or even disliking) the Batman of a different era.

    Indeed that's exactly how I feel about Batman. I really like the affable, fallible Batman of the Jim Aparo/ Bob Haney wonder years, who was "merely" the world's best detective. And dislike the driven, unfriendly omni-competent Bat "god" of todays comics.

    Don't tell me they are the same character. They're not. Not if character has anything to do with basic personality, how you interact with other people, and what you're likely to do in a given situation. (And for me that's what character is really about… not about the costume or the name.)

    Turning to Superman, I prefer those versions he's so strong and fast that the "typical" Superman story is not about a trial of strength, but a case of a foe bringing something else to the fight (magic, scientific genius, etc)…. and Superman having to use his powers creatively so he can defeat his foes without hurting them. And… for me… speed feats are a really important part of the overall character. Probably just down to that's the version that was around when I was a kid.

    But ultimately, I do agree with you that the important thing is a rattling good story. Indeed, nowadays I must admit I follow writers rather than characters!
    Last edited by jackdaw53; 11-03-2012 at 01:26 PM.

  5. #200
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    No faster than the Flash.

  6. #201
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackdaw53 View Post
    Good question. And I'll try to put together a logical argument to support my preference.

    First up its clear that we all have a preference for particular characters. And for me… as far as super hero comics go… that preference is mostly down to that characters personality, and their powers and abilities.

    I don't really care about names or costumes, and I regard it as self evident that practically all the longstanding icons (e.g. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc) have actually been different characters in different eras. And I feel its quite possible to really like a Batman (say) of a given era, while really not liking (or even disliking) the Batman of a different era.

    Indeed that's exactly how I feel about Batman. I really like the affable, fallible Batman of the Jim Aparo/ Bob Haney wonder years, who was "merely" the world's best detective. And dislike the driven, unfriendly omni-competent Bat "god" of todays comics.

    Don't tell me they are the same character. They're not. Not if character has anything to do with basic personality, how you interact with other people, and what you're likely to do in a given situation. (And for me that's what character is really about… not about the costume or the name.)

    Turning to Superman, I prefer those versions he's so strong and fast that the "typical" Superman story is not about a trial of strength, but a case of a foe bringing something else to the fight (magic, scientific genius, etc)…. and Superman having to use his powers creatively so he can defeat his foes without hurting them. And… for me… speed feats are a really important part of the overall character. Probably just down to that's the version that was around when I was a kid.

    But ultimately, I do agree with you that the important thing is a rattling good story. Indeed, nowadays I must admit I follow writers rather than characters!


    Good argument (very well thought out)......but the thing is, you can still have Superman you want (a guy so strong and fast that you gotta have new ways to fight him) without making him the fastest. You just make him really fast because the villain isn't thinking "man this Superman guy is really fast for going 3 billion trillion times the speed of light......but he's no Flash. That guy can go 5 billion trillions times the speed of light"


    All the while Superman only had to go like 5 times the speed of sound or something to beat this guy. Who on the planet earth can actually see the difference in their speed? Their not even blurs anymore. We just plain can't see what they're doing anymore. I'd actually think the public (in the DCU) only thinks Flash is faster mainly because that's his only power and his name makes you think of speed. The people of the world likely have no hard evidence as to who is faster.....they just look like less then blurs to them. It's like the whole infinity and infinity + 1 argument......it makes no difference.

    You can still have all of those big crazy story........you just need to put characters from other books out of your mind when you're not reading there books. That's how I read my books Superman anyway.

  7. #202
    Senior Member Coyote2010's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jackdaw53 View Post
    Good question. And I'll try to put together a logical argument to support my preference.

    First up its clear that we all have a preference for particular characters. And for me… as far as super hero comics go… that preference is mostly down to that characters personality, and their powers and abilities.

    I don't really care about names or costumes, and I regard it as self evident that practically all the longstanding icons (e.g. Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, etc) have actually been different characters in different eras. And I feel its quite possible to really like a Batman (say) of a given era, while really not liking (or even disliking) the Batman of a different era.

    Indeed that's exactly how I feel about Batman. I really like the affable, fallible Batman of the Jim Aparo/ Bob Haney wonder years, who was "merely" the world's best detective. And dislike the driven, unfriendly omni-competent Bat "god" of todays comics.

    Don't tell me they are the same character. They're not. Not if character has anything to do with basic personality, how you interact with other people, and what you're likely to do in a given situation. (And for me that's what character is really about… not about the costume or the name.)

    Turning to Superman, I prefer those versions he's so strong and fast that the "typical" Superman story is not about a trial of strength, but a case of a foe bringing something else to the fight (magic, scientific genius, etc)…. and Superman having to use his powers creatively so he can defeat his foes without hurting them. And… for me… speed feats are a really important part of the overall character. Probably just down to that's the version that was around when I was a kid.

    But ultimately, I do agree with you that the important thing is a rattling good story. Indeed, nowadays I must admit I follow writers rather than characters!

    I agree completely with this post. I think that my favorite era of Superman is the version of the character where his integrity AND ability are endless in their scope and potential.


    It's not about keeping tally of feats per story, it's about the integrity of the character. My version of Superman has the potential to rival the Flash, especially when conventional wisdom says "that's impossible, or should be impossible." The tag line of "Superman" says it all just like "Fastest Man Alive" does for some people.

    It should be impossible for anyone to match the Flash, and that's where Superman comes in... His career is doing the impossible, not just through wits and gumption, but also through sheer physicality.

  8. #203
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote2010 View Post
    I agree completely with this post. I think that my favorite era of Superman is the version of the character where his integrity AND ability are endless in their scope and potential.


    It's not about keeping tally of feats per story, it's about the integrity of the character. My version of Superman has the potential to rival the Flash, especially when conventional wisdom says "that's impossible, or should be impossible." The tag line of "Superman" says it all just like "Fastest Man Alive" does for some people.

    It should be impossible for anyone to match the Flash, and that's where Superman comes in... His career is doing the impossible, not just through wits and gumption, but also through sheer physicality.

    The only thing I don't get with this is doesn't that just make Superman the fastest as soon as he does the impossible and beats Flash? Then we learn that it wasn't really impossible....just that Superman's been sandbagging it till that moment? Or are you saying that his speed goes back down or something after that "impossible" moment?

    Whatever the case though Flash's title is pointless, right?

    I just don't see the point in calling him the fastest if Superman can just beat hands down....when he feels like it.

  9. #204
    Senior Member Coyote2010's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    The only thing I don't get with this is doesn't that just make Superman the fastest as soon as he does the impossible and beats Flash? Then we learn that it wasn't really impossible....just that Superman's been sandbagging it till that moment? Or are you saying that his speed goes back down or something after that "impossible" moment?

    Whatever the case though Flash's title is pointless, right?

    I just don't see the point in calling him the fastest if Superman can just beat hands down....when he feels like it.


    I don't think it's hands down. Imagine he's Wilt Chamberlain, he's got a 100 point game in him, he doesn't have to average it, but he can do it at least once.

  10. #205
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote2010 View Post
    I don't think it's hands down. Imagine he's Wilt Chamberlain, he's got a 100 point game in him, he doesn't have to average it, but he can do it at least once.
    I guess I see what you mean and I could see that happening just once maybe....because if it were to happen more times then Flash's title would be moot and pointless. But I see and mainly agree in some regards with what you're saying.

  11. #206
    Senior Member Coyote2010's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I guess I see what you mean and I could see that happening just once maybe....because if it were to happen more times then Flash's title would be moot and pointless. But I see and mainly agree in some regards with what you're saying.

    I also think Superman would say and believe that Flash is faster, but he would know he could give him a run for his money.

  12. #207
    Senior Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stephens2177 View Post
    Adkal yes he has shown all those abilities off and on over the years,but they are not consistent,they are almost forgotten every other issue,and if he was shown the same respect as barry,wally,jonn,or billy he would have these abilities,these uses for his powers,as his everyday possiblepowerset.
    Apologies, what I was trying to convey (poorly) was that the stories where he did those things (Tower of Babel, What's So Funny..., President Lex, King of the World etc are, generally, considered to be 'good' stories. Morrison, Waid, Kelly etc have repeatedly shown that even at uber-power you can tell a good story; you don't have to keep weighing Superman down.

  13. #208
    Senior Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote2010 View Post
    I also think Superman would say and believe that Flash is faster, but he would know he could give him a run for his money.
    Totally. Now.

    Back when they did do the races, though, they were pretty much equal and it was a case of 'either one on any given day' (and, not to harp on about it (sorry), that's why I didn't like what Johns had Barry say in Rebirth).

    When it comes to 'speed finesse' then pretty much every 'contemporary' Flash has Superman beat - for them, a lot of the 'speed feats' are intuitive, for him they're, generally, counter-intuitive. Vibrating himself intangible, for example: he can do it but his body and the nature of his physical make-up makes it harder for him to do so.

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by adkal View Post
    Totally. Now.

    Back when they did do the races, though, they were pretty much equal and it was a case of 'either one on any given day' (and, not to harp on about it (sorry), that's why I didn't like what Johns had Barry say in Rebirth).

    When it comes to 'speed finesse' then pretty much every 'contemporary' Flash has Superman beat - for them, a lot of the 'speed feats' are intuitive, for him they're, generally, counter-intuitive. Vibrating himself intangible, for example: he can do it but his body and the nature of his physical make-up makes it harder for him to do so.
    I agree about that Rebirth moment and think the Roberson scene from Grounded is closer to the mark in characterization and execution. That Flash scene for me is just another echo from the Frank Miller Batman Beatdown in Dark Knight Returns... Every hero got to slap Superman around once to make up for his Bronze and Silver Age dominance.

    The one I disagree most with is WW slitting his throat like a hog... Just like the rebirth scene, did nothing for either character.

  15. #210
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote2010 View Post
    I agree about that Rebirth moment and think the Roberson scene from Grounded is closer to the mark in characterization and execution. That Flash scene for me is just another echo from the Frank Miller Batman Beatdown in Dark Knight Returns... Every hero got to slap Superman around once to make up for his Bronze and Silver Age dominance.

    The one I disagree most with is WW slitting his throat like a hog... Just like the rebirth scene, did nothing for either character.

    I'll agree with this. Letting characters just do stuff and show up characters for no real reason (character nuance, story reason ect) is really really dumb.

    Good: Flash and Superman having a friendly "race" when they find the time (which isn't hard for them) in Grant Morrison's 1st issue of JLA.....it a bit hard to catch it lol


    Bad: Flash just apparently letting Superman know that he was patronizing him their whole Superhero lives....this was from Flash rebirth.

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