Clay Orgin or Demi-God?

[dupersuper]

Clones are not offspring though. They're clones. Genetic equivalent of a twin brother or sister, but with their own classification.

That Superman/Luthor retcon made no sense then and makes no sense now. It came from a writer that didn't even bother reading the origin, wanted Luthor there, and got a lot of it wrong. From premise to reasoning behind it to etc. That's a whole other thread though.

Actually, Johns had clearly read the origin as he first suggested the idea in a fan letter to the letters column in Superboys own book at the time, and - while I agree it was a cheesey idea - it actually makes perfect sense as Luthor was working with Cadmus at the time.

[C-Dot]

Actually, Johns had clearly read the origin as he first suggested the idea in a fan letter to the letters column in Superboys own book at the time, and - while I agree it was a cheesey idea - it actually makes perfect sense as Luthor was working with Cadmus at the time.

The fan letter was written way after it was already revealed that Westfield was the donor in Superboy Annual #2. The issue Johns was talking about in the letter (Superboy #20) was way after that issue.

His proposal for "Superboy: The Family Tree" with Keith Champagne (that was rejected for Didio's Superboy run) had Superboy described as "an amalgam of Superman and Paul Westfield". His Teen Titans run had Superboy as cloned from Superman and Westfield (right down to the "cloned from the world's greatest hero Superman" blurb) and later the whole "cloned from Superman and Lex Luthor". If he read the origin in Adventures of Superman #506 and the 20+ other books in the Superboy run talking about his creation, he would have known that Superboy was never cloned from two people or cloned directly from Superman himself (whole point of Reign was that none of the Supermen were Superman resurrected by cloning or anything else). Johns even had Superboy say "your genes overpower those of that whacked out scientist" (Westfield was never a scientist and neither was his daughter Amanda Spence).

Lex and Cadmus never worked together. In "Funeral For A Friend" ("World Without A Superman" trade), Cadmus tried to take Superman and Doomsday's bodies since Westfield claimed to have federal authority to do so ("Section 12 of the Executive Emergency Act"). When they locked down the area by force and caused a news blackout (destroying Lex's TV dish), Lex sends in Supergirl and Team Luthor to draw their fire. Luthor got the mayor and Washington to stop Westfield from taking Superman and this led to Westfield and his troops stealing the body. Lex was paranoid when the body was gone because he thought Superman rose from the dead. When he suspected that Cadmus was behind it, he thought Superman's plan was to be cloned just like Lex was cloned. But he had no Cadmus mole since he killed his only one beforehand. When Lois discovered that Cadmus took Superman and told Lex, he was irate. He got Supergirl and Lois to take the body and Lex literally celebrated at Superman's tomb. He later sets up an arrangement with Carl Packard (Supergirl & Team Luthor #1), who told him that Superman couldn't be cloned. When Superboy first came on the scene and said that Cadmus created him in an interview. Lex was ticked and destroyed his TV. He confronted Packard, Superboy's creator, and got the truth from him (Superboy's full appearance in AOS #501). No one at Cadmus knew where his DNA came from except Westfield himself (had access to DNA because he was exec. director...Annual #2). After failing to recruit Steel and failing to recruit Superboy (using Supergirl to lure him), he said that each Superman (Steel, Superboy, etc.) haunted his nights and that he was going to prove them liars. After Reign, Cadmus and Lexcorp went to war against each other and Westfield had a grudge against Luthor for all that happened in World Without A Superman.

That's one of the reasons why it made no sense. Lex personally stopped Cadmus twice, didn't want Superman back as a clone, and didn't even know about Superboy.

[Outside_85]

Problem with all of this is that Lex is the sort of person who could set all of that up (he has the money after all), just so he has deniability in case it doesn't play out as he wants it to (and he was trying to pretend he was some kind of quasi-superhero at the time...along with his massive mane and beard).

[C-Dot]

Problem with all of this is that Lex is the sort of person who could set all of that up (he has the money after all), just so he has deniability in case it doesn't play out as he wants it to (and he was trying to pretend he was some kind of quasi-superhero at the time...along with his massive mane and beard).

That doesn't make any sense.

Yes Lex has money. And Lex has his own resources, his own cloning labs, his own scientists, and his own empire. Project Cadmus was a secret government agency whose sole purpose is genetic research....with its own military shock troops, support, and infrastructure. Funded by government money. Not a subsidiary of Lexcorp or funded by Luthor or Lexcorp in any single way possible. If Lex wanted a clone, he would get Lexcorp to make one without question. And he did just that in the Supergirl 1994 miniseries. A clone army of Supergirls that he envisioned and planned before Superboy was even made (Supergirl & Team Luthor #1). And this started when Lex and Happersen, his right hand man, took genetic samples of Supergirl. Lex had his own thing, his own hero in Supergirl, and didn't know anything about Superboy. All of that was in the books. Lex got Packard as his mole in Supergirl & Team Luthor #1 (during "Funeral For A Friend"). It shows in full Packard telling Lex that Superman couldn't be cloned, what they did before the body was taken, and Lex happy about Superman's DNA being uncloneable.

“Superman’s DNA scan destroyed...the cloning scheme scotched! Perhaps there is a benevolent god.”

“We shouldn’t let the little things bother us. Life is so sweet! Just think…a world without a Superman to stand in my way! And assurances that there exist no means to recreate him!”

Does that sound like a man that wanted to clone Superman?

A man who hates Superman to his very core and xenophobe #1....literally resurrecting Superman with his DNA mixed with the very thing he considered "the alien" and his mortal enemy.....made no sense.

[Mr. Holmes]

Indeed it doesn't. If anything, he would be insulted by the idea of mixing his DNA with that alien's DNA.

[Outside_85]

If I am not mistaken, Lex tried to bribe Superman to his side in the very beginning (when he stopped being just a mad scientist) so having a 'Super' on his side isn't that odd, not to mention the Matrix Supergirl.
Added I am not so sure labelling Lex as a xenophobe is entirely accurate, he would be going after every alien if that was the case. I think it is just because Superman is essentially seen as being in his spotlight that he hates him, same way Dr. Doom is obsessed with being better than Mr. Fantastic.

[Robotman4]

If I am not mistaken, Lex tried to bribe Superman to his side in the very beginning (when he stopped being just a mad scientist) so having a 'Super' on his side isn't that odd, not to mention the Matrix Supergirl.
Added I am not so sure labelling Lex as a xenophobe is entirely accurate, he would be going after every alien if that was the case. I think it is just because Superman is essentially seen as being in his spotlight that he hates him, same way Dr. Doom is obsessed with being better than Mr. Fantastic.

yeah Lex has worked with aliens a number of times. Brainiac for example. he just uses the anti-alien sentiment to stir up paranoia and fear in the public. he needs to be seen as the savior of mankind and cant do that with Superman around.

[dupersuper]

Lex and Cadmus never worked together. In "Funeral For A Friend" ("World Without A Superman" trade), Cadmus tried to take Superman and Doomsday's bodies since Westfield claimed to have federal authority to do so ("Section 12 of the Executive Emergency Act"). When they locked down the area by force and caused a news blackout (destroying Lex's TV dish), Lex sends in Supergirl and Team Luthor to draw their fire. Luthor got the mayor and Washington to stop Westfield from taking Superman and this led to Westfield and his troops stealing the body. Lex was paranoid when the body was gone because he thought Superman rose from the dead. When he suspected that Cadmus was behind it, he thought Superman's plan was to be cloned just like Lex was cloned. But he had no Cadmus mole since he killed his only one beforehand.

Who did he kill beforehand? He still had a mole during the Clone Plague...

[C-Dot]

If I am not mistaken, Lex tried to bribe Superman to his side in the very beginning (when he stopped being just a mad scientist) so having a 'Super' on his side isn't that odd, not to mention the Matrix Supergirl.
Added I am not so sure labelling Lex as a xenophobe is entirely accurate, he would be going after every alien if that was the case. I think it is just because Superman is essentially seen as being in his spotlight that he hates him, same way Dr. Doom is obsessed with being better than Mr. Fantastic.

"Lex is a xenophobe" is very accurate. You know what xenophobic hate is, right? He had it for THAT alien. An alien in higher position than Lex? A feeling that Lex is better than "that alien"? It's been that way for years. No "I'm fooling the public". It's his own personal feeling and agenda.

I'm the one who mentioned Supergirl and his attempts to lure Steel and Superboy for a reason. Lex obviously used Supergirl for his own ends and planned to do the same with Steel and Superboy. The reason? Control. His controlling nature. He considered himself the best of humanity and above everyone. Combine that with his hate for Superman and his view of himself, you really think he'll willingly combine his DNA with the very thing he hates to make the thing he hates? Having a Super on his side isn’t odd. Having his mortal enemy and object of hate literally resurrected with his DNA mixed in when he didn’t want him back in any way due to his xenophobia and hate (and took great effort to see that Superman couldn't be cloned) is odd.

Lex cloning Supergirl made perfect sense. He had his own scientists clone her to make an army of them all in a plan to make himself "savior of Metropolis" with his own view of being better than Superman. Fits right in with who Lex was. Superboy being Lex’s project made absolutely no sense whatsoever from any story standpoint. The premise of "Superboy as a weapon" didn't make sense because Match, his clone, was already made to be a weapon and antithesis of Superboy.

[C-Dot]

yeah Lex has worked with aliens a number of times. Brainiac for example. he just uses the anti-alien sentiment to stir up paranoia and fear in the public. he needs to be seen as the savior of mankind and cant do that with Superman around.

And that doesn't mean he didn't have xenophobic hate. He always had that.

[C-Dot]

Who did he kill beforehand? He still had a mole during the Clone Plague...

That mole during the clone plague was the same Dr. Carl Packard that Lex made an arrangement with.

Dr. Teng, the creator of Bizarro, was Luthor's first "mole". He was a Lexcorp scientist who infiltrated Cadmus and found Dr. Dabney Donovan living under the facility. Lex needed experts in cloning to create a new body. After the two cloned Luthor a new younger body, Luthor planned to kill them in an explosion to cover his tracks. Teng was killed and Donovan survived. This was in Action Comics #678.

Luthor made an arrangement with Packard after Superman's body was taken back (Supergirl & Team Luthor #1). Packard told Lex everything that happened in the "Guardians of Metropolis" story and additional details that happened after the story......Lex faked sympathy for Packard not being able to clone Superman. He gave Packard a meal on him and proceeded to celebrate with Happersen. In Adventures of Superman #501, it clearly showed Lex not knowing about Superboy and going to Packard to confront him on that since he told him that Superman couldn't cloned.

[Mr. Holmes]

"Lex is a xenophobe" is very accurate. You know what xenophobic hate is, right? He had it for THAT alien. An alien in higher position than Lex? A feeling that Lex is better than "that alien"? It's been that way for years. No "I'm fooling the public". It's his own personal feeling and agenda.

I'm the one who mentioned Supergirl and his attempts to lure Steel and Superboy for a reason. Lex obviously used Supergirl for his own ends and planned to do the same with Steel and Superboy. The reason? Control. His controlling nature. He considered himself the best of humanity and above everyone. Combine that with his hate for Superman and his view of himself, you really think he'll willingly combine his DNA with the very thing he hates to make the thing he hates? Having a Super on his side isn’t odd. Having his mortal enemy and object of hate literally resurrected with his DNA mixed in when he didn’t want him back in any way due to his xenophobia and hate (and took great effort to see that Superman couldn't be cloned) is odd.

Lex cloning Supergirl made perfect sense. He had his own scientists clone her to make an army of them all in a plan to make himself "savior of Metropolis" with his own view of being better than Superman. Fits right in with who Lex was. Superboy being Lex’s project made absolutely no sense whatsoever from any story standpoint. The premise of "Superboy as a weapon" didn't make sense because Match, his clone, was already made to be a weapon and antithesis of Superboy.

Yeah I mean not only is Lex a xenophobe...the xenophobia has been or at least become a (if not the) core, defining characteristic of who Lex is. So it's not even a small inconsistency, it completely flies in the face of who Lex is.

[Wonder39]

...meanwhile, in WOnder Woman.... ;)

M

[Outside_85]

"Lex is a xenophobe" is very accurate. You know what xenophobic hate is, right? He had it for THAT alien. An alien in higher position than Lex? A feeling that Lex is better than "that alien"? It's been that way for years. No "I'm fooling the public". It's his own personal feeling and agenda.

He hates one specific alien, he doesn't hate all of them, that doesn't make him a xenophobe.

[carabas]

He hates one specific alien, he doesn't hate all of them, that doesn't make him a xenophobe.

How many other aliens does he know? He's not very friendly with the Martian Manhunter either.