Clay Orgin or Demi-God?

[stk]

To me, that is like saying Aquaman's powers make him seem less like a person and more like a fish.

Because Aquaman is made out of fish? I don't think that comparison works. Aquaman was still born. Wonder Woman was created. Like a toy coming to life or something.

[Sacred Knight]

I'm going to need longer than 13 issues worth of story with the new origin to decide if I'll ultimately like it better or not. That may seem like a cop-out answer but when you compare the material for each origin, right now there is no comparison. I certainly like the new origin in theory and what's been done with it so far, but for me I want to let it get a decent amount of time and story material under its belt. All I can commit to for now is that I think its an intriguing and worthwhile idea to try and one year in I don't find myself missing the clay origin yet.

[Wonder39]

Zeus is the grandfather of Hippolyte, I never have written Zeus is the father of Queen Hipployte. Zeus He is the father supposedly of Wonder Woman. He is both Wonder Woman's Great grandfather and father of Wonder Woman. Ares is the Father of Queen Hippolyte and the mortal Otrera is her mother by Real Greek Mythology. Zeus and Hera is parents of Ares the god of war. Ares is the grandfather of Wonder Woman. Hercules is the uncle of Wonder Woman. Queen Hippolyte had sexual intercourse with Zeus to produce Diana, Wonder Woman. This is incest.

Wonder Woman should not be sexually abused by anyone, nor should her mother Queen Hippolyte. This is all incest.

but again, this isn't "real" mythology-- the Amazons, etc that Marston used are inspired by ancient mythology, but he has his own take on it..... Zeus is not Hippolyte's grandfather, she didn't have a mother in Orera, etc.

In the original Marston mythology, the Goddess Aphrodite created the Amazons and Diana..... in the Perez version the Goddesses created the Amazons using thr souls of women who died at the hand of man-- reborn to a new race of women-- including Hippolyte (who became their queen) Diana was born of the clay of Paradise island, a soul, and the powers of the Goddesses.

M

[Wonder39]

The only thing wrong with the clay origin is it makes her seem like less of a person and more of a Golem.

I never ever got that from the origin... and I started reading her book in the early/mid 70s as a little kid. She was brought to life, made flesh and blood. Not a soul-less animated mud person-- but a real person with a soul who feels and thinks and loves and bleeds....

What is it with folks not being able to wrap their minds around that? I don't have issues with Kal being an alien.... he's not human. In fact, Diana is MORE human than he is...
M

[Wonder39]

Because Aquaman is made out of fish? I don't think that comparison works. Aquaman was still born. Wonder Woman was created. Like a toy coming to life or something.

Not just "coming to life" like a wind up toy... the clay is made flesh and blood. It's no different than the Christian origin of the creation of man(which, by the way-- lots of folks hold to be tue) or the myth of Galateia. Why can we believe a man can fly, or Batman doesn't somehow get killed (or at least caught up in his stupid cape) but *this* is so difficult to get?

[stk]

I never ever got that from the origin... and I started reading her book in the early/mid 70s as a little kid. She was brought to life, made flesh and blood. Not a soul-less animated mud person-- but a real person with a soul who feels and thinks and loves and bleeds....

What is it with folks not being able to wrap their minds around that?

Who says I can't? I don't understand why you can't see it from both perspectives. But the bottom line is that she was not born from her mother. And she was not granted life by her mother. These are big things.

And hey, I voted clay. I like it better than demigod. But the story of an idealized clay sculpture brought to life has issues that come along with it. It has nothing to do with Superman being an alien or whatever, and honestly, I am so sick to death of Superman being brought in to compare to some aspect of Wonder Woman at every slightest drop of a hat, I can't even tell you. It's bad enough no one can ever have a discussion about Wonder Woman's powers without Superman being brought up repeatedly, but we need it for the origin, too?

[brettc1]

Because Aquaman is made out of fish? I don't think that comparison works. Aquaman was still born. Wonder Woman was created. Like a toy coming to life or something.

Because the logic requires taking one aspect of the character and relating it to and identical aspect of a completly different creature. Towit, Aquaman and fish both breathe water, therefore Aquaman is a talking fish.

But that of course is silly - as silly as saying Wonder Woman is a talking golem because they both have clay in their story.

[FIFTY-TWO (52)]

Not just "coming to life" like a wind up toy... the clay is made flesh and blood. It's no different than the Christian origin of the creation of man(which, by the way-- lots of folks hold to be tue) or the myth of Galateia. Why can we believe a man can fly, or Batman doesn't somehow get killed (or at least caught up in his stupid cape) but *this* is so difficult to get?

The problem is that Diana, herself, questioned her own existence and its dependence on the gods. Yes, Adam was created from clay, but you didn't have people undoing that creation with a well-placed spell. And that's been the problem with Diana as an emissary and champion of the gods whose life depended on their well-being. When the gods take off or stop paying attention, Diana loses her powers or reverts to clay. If the gods' power is diverted or threatened by another mad god, everyone who depends on them starts to wither on the vine. If some techno-villain or witch comes up with a spell or potion to disrupt Diana's gifts, either through reversion or a separation from her powers, it becomes a question of how they can do such a thing when the precedent was set by Perez himself. Now, instead of being a pawn of the gods, Diana's been made one of them from the beginning. She retains what makes her an Amazon, but is no longer susceptible to BS chicanery of villains (and lazy writers) when it comes to the clay origin.

[C-Dot]

Male readers seem to be okay with Superman and Luthor having a cloned offspring. So it's okay if two dudes make a baby, but not if a woman does it on her own?

Clones are not offspring though. They're clones. Genetic equivalent of a twin brother or sister, but with their own classification.

That Superman/Luthor retcon made no sense then and makes no sense now. It came from a writer that didn't even bother reading the origin, wanted Luthor there, and got a lot of it wrong. From premise to reasoning behind it to etc. That's a whole other thread though.

[stk]

Because the logic requires taking one aspect of the character and relating it to and identical aspect of a completly different creature. Towit, Aquaman and fish both breathe water, therefore Aquaman is a talking fish.

But that of course is silly - as silly as saying Wonder Woman is a talking golem because they both have clay in their story.

Aquaman is still someone born of parents. Wonder Woman is a clay sculpture -- a work of art -- brought to life. And again, NOT brought to life by her "mother".

How do you not see the huge difference there? Aquaman was an actual baby; Wonder Woman was an art project. What I'm talking about has zero to do with their abilities or super-powers. And you can't ignore the similarity to the Golem story. It's pretty well-known. You could also draw a parallel to Pinocchio. There is no comparable "fish" story for Aquaman.

[brettc1]

Aquaman is still someone born of parents. Wonder Woman is a clay sculpture -- a work of art -- brought to life. And again, NOT brought to life by her "mother".

How do you not see the huge difference there? Aquaman was an actual baby; Wonder Woman was an art project. What I'm talking about has zero to do with their abilities or super-powers. And you can't ignore the similarity to the Golem story. It's pretty well-known. You could also draw a parallel to Pinocchio. There is no comparable "fish" story for Aquaman.

Aquaman breathes water - fish breathe water. Ergo - Aquaman is a fish.

Wonder Woman started as clay. Golems started as clay. Ergo - Wonder Woman is a golem.

It's nonsense. You cant classify one thing as being the same as another thing based on only one criteria. You could just as easily say that Superman is a homo-sapien, as long as you are prepared to completely ignore the huge differences between a homo sapien and a Kryptonian.

Also, I'm not sure it is even true to say an organicl parent 'brings a child to life'. [And I'm a parent]. The biological mechanism is already there. I love my kids but saying that I and my wife brought them to life sounds like hubris.

[stk]

Wonder Woman started as clay. Golems started as clay. Ergo - Wonder Woman is a golem.

I never said Wonder Woman was a Golem. I just remarked on the similarity between the two stories of life being created from something lifeless.

[brettc1]

The only thing wrong with the clay origin is it makes her seem like less of a person and more of a Golem.

I never said Wonder Woman was a Golem. I just remarked on the similarity between the two stories of life being created from something lifeless.

As long as we agree that she is no way a golem. I guess she could "seem" that way - if folks scrupulously ignored all the other evidence.

[Wonder39]

Who says I can't? I don't understand why you can't see it from both perspectives. But the bottom line is that she was not born from her mother. And she was not granted life by her mother. These are big things.

And hey, I voted clay. I like it better than demigod. But the story of an idealized clay sculpture brought to life has issues that come along with it. It has nothing to do with Superman being an alien or whatever, and honestly, I am so sick to death of Superman being brought in to compare to some aspect of Wonder Woman at every slightest drop of a hat, I can't even tell you. It's bad enough no one can ever have a discussion about Wonder Woman's powers without Superman being brought up repeatedly, but we need it for the origin, too?

I should have been more general in my response-- it wasn't anyting personal against/about you-- just something general I've noticed and been frustrated by.... I never said that "you" couldn't get it, and who says that I don't see the other side of the coin?

On another note, I do get your frustration over other heroes being brought up in debates about WW, but sometimes it just happens-- especially when certain wild aspects of one characters seem difficult for some, while wild aspects of other characters seem perfectly acceptable...
M

[Darrell D.]

I never said Wonder Woman was a Golem. I just remarked on the similarity between the two stories of life being created from something lifeless.

It can go even further, to the breathing of life into clay by Prometheus, the Titan that created the human race, as well as the legend of Adam, and the Egyptians had a clay based origin for humans.
It's an old story, just as old as the god(s) mating with humans to create offspring that would become legendary figures in Myth.
Either one seems to work in the context of Wonder Woman, but the demi-God one seems to work best for the story that Azzarello is telling.