View Poll Results: Clay orgin or Demi-god

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  • Clay

    67 48.91%
  • Demi-god

    64 46.72%
  • .

    6 4.38%
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  1. #271
    evil maybe, genius no stk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    but a big message of the clay origin is that women don't need men to reproduce
    Does that really qualify as a "message"?

    That's like saying the message of Superman is that males can be bullet-proof. Go ahead and try it.

    If you really want to complain about something, it should be the loss of the original origin, which stated WW got her powers through training, and that any woman was capable of doing what she did, rather than having her powers simply handed to her by the Greek gods.
    Last edited by stk; 11-02-2012 at 12:43 AM.

  2. #272

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    Quote Originally Posted by caprice View Post
    William Moulton Marston the creator of Wonder Woman had created Wonder Woman to be made out of clay for a good reason, so she would be the perfect woman that the gods and goddess of both Roman and Greek would grant her gifts of being their champion such as physical strength, beauty, wisdom and eternal life.

    Queen Hippolyte cannot have sex with her grandfather Zeus to produce Wonder Woman. This would make Wonder Woman seriously ill, a victim of incest. I think DC comics should go back to the original where she made into clay or I think about another god from Roman gods, goddesses who is not related to Queen Hippolyte in any shape or form.

    Queen Hippolyte's father is Ares and mother Otrera. Ares is the son of Zeus and Hera. Ares is the god of war. A mortal woman Otrera is the founder of Temples of Ephesus who worshipped goddess Diana and the goddess Artemis who both Greek and Roman goddess of the hunt and chaste.

    Hercules is the son of Zeus and mortal Alcmene. Accordingly to real Greek mythology, Hercules and Hippolyte had sex, she had given her belt to him before her Amazons had attacked him and his men. They the Amazons were tricked by Hera the queen of the gods in believing that Hercules was going to kill Hippolyte. He and his men killed them all or enslaved them or the Amazons freely married them. Hercules is both Greek and Roman mythology.

    I can see Queen Hippolyte have sex with Roman Hercules or the Roman Jupiter which would keeps the relationships free from incest, Wonder Woman would be born healthy physically and emotionally not a victim of sexual abuse. Queen Hippolyte should be free from sexual abuse such as incest.

    Please stop the storyline that Zeus is Wonder Woman's father, this means, he is her great grandfather and her father. This is inbreeding.
    ...well, you refer to actual mythology vs the mythology as set up by Marston- her creator. His Amazons and mythology are inspired by, but not word for word, ancient Greek mythology. Zeus was not Hippolyte's father in the comics, nor was Otrera her mother.


    However, Zeus being her dad is icky and they should go back to the clay origin ;)
    M

    edit: I see someone already posted a response to ya :)
    Last edited by Wonder39; 11-02-2012 at 01:41 AM.

  3. #273

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kurosawa View Post
    Clay origin is much, much better. Zeus impregnating women is a typical thing in the myths, but a big message of the clay origin is that women don't need men to reproduce, and that fits in with what should be Wonder Woman's central theme-feminism. But male comics writers and readers are terrified of that, so instead we get the typical fathered by Zeus crap.

    I refuse to accept it.
    I agree about the clay origin being better--- for me it's a much more powerful story and visual. There is no real "message" to the clay birth-- the point wasn't to tell men that they weren't needed, and that's not what real feminism is-- The clay origin was a way for a child to be born to the isloated and immortal amazon queen. It reinforced the feminine narrative and origin ( a girl born to the Queen of a nation of peaceful women who worshipped a Goddess of Love) as well as being a story about the power of love.

    However, my feeling is that a lot of male writers and readers are (maybe not terrified but) somehow threatened by that-- by the lack of a man or father in the birth of Diana. As other posters have mentioned, it's fine to have tons of stories and origins where the mother figure is either non-existant or barely there. But you have ONE purely female-centric origin and some guys just can't deal with it..... I'm not saying everyone who dislaikes the clay origin is that way, but.....

    M
    Last edited by Wonder39; 11-02-2012 at 03:08 PM.

  4. #274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    I was talking about the Amazons, not Diana. And if it wasn't conjured, where did the soul come from?
    Presumably the same place as Batman's, Starfire's, and the various clones that run around the DCU.
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  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by brettc1 View Post
    Presumably the same place as Batman's, Starfire's, and the various clones that run around the DCU.
    What exactly has Batman and Starfire to do with any of this?

    Oh and as for the clones, that's covered by Geoff John's Superboy work in TT vol. 3.

  6. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outside_85 View Post
    What exactly has Batman and Starfire to do with any of this?
    Do they not both have souls? And yet Starfire is an alien.

    Oh and as for the clones, that's covered by Geoff John's Superboy work in TT vol. 3.
    Yes, I've read it. He has a soul. Clearly if you achieve sentience at some point a soul enters the equation, regardless of how you stated off - as a fertilized egg, a cultured biological sample, or a piece of clay transmuted at the subatomic level into organic matter.
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  7. #277

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonder39 View Post
    I agree about the clay origin being better--- for me it's a much more powerful story and visual. There is no real "message" to the clay birth-- the point wasn't to tell men that they weren't needed, and that's not what real feminism is-- The clay origin was a way for a child to be born to the isloated and immortal amazon queen. It reinforced the feminine narrative and origin ( a girl born to the Queen of a nation of peaceful women who worshipped a Goddess of Love) as well as being a story about the power of love.

    However, my feeling is that a lot of male writers and readers are (maybe not terrified but) somehow threatened by that-- by the lack of a man or father in the birth of Diana. As other posters have emtnioned, it's fine to have toms of stories and origins where the mother figure is either non-existant or barely there. But you have ONE purely female-centric origin and some guys judt can't deal with it..... I'm not saying everyone who dislaikes the clay origin is that way, but.....

    M
    The best post I've seen on this thread so far. I approve this message.

  8. #278

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    Male readers seem to be okay with Superman and Luthor having a cloned offspring. So it's okay if two dudes make a baby, but not if a woman does it on her own?
    Last edited by An Ear In The Fireplace; 11-02-2012 at 08:35 AM.

  9. #279
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    Zeus is the grandfather of Hippolyte, I never have written Zeus is the father of Queen Hipployte. Zeus He is the father supposedly of Wonder Woman. He is both Wonder Woman's Great grandfather and father of Wonder Woman. Ares is the Father of Queen Hippolyte and the mortal Otrera is her mother by Real Greek Mythology. Zeus and Hera is parents of Ares the god of war. Ares is the grandfather of Wonder Woman. Hercules is the uncle of Wonder Woman. Queen Hippolyte had sexual intercourse with Zeus to produce Diana, Wonder Woman. This is incest.

    Wonder Woman should not be sexually abused by anyone, nor should her mother Queen Hippolyte. This is all incest.
    Last edited by caprice; 11-02-2012 at 09:30 PM.

  10. #280
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    Quote Originally Posted by An Ear In The Fireplace View Post
    Male readers seem to be okay with Superman and Luthor having a cloned offspring. So it's okay if two dudes make a baby, but not if a woman does it on her own?
    As a Superboy fan, I HATE that origin that Johns retconned in.

  11. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    As a Superboy fan, I HATE that origin that Johns retconned in.
    I can see that. But I never liked the character until he added that retcon.

  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Holmes View Post
    As a Superboy fan, I HATE that origin that Johns retconned in.
    Quote Originally Posted by stk View Post
    I can see that. But I never liked the character until he added that retcon.
    Since before Johns changed it, Superboys human "dad" was Paul Westfield, it doesn't really effect the "2 guys" argument.
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  13. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wonder39 View Post
    I agree about the clay origin being better--- for me it's a much more powerful story and visual. There is no real "message" to the clay birth-- the point wasn't to tell men that they weren't needed, and that's not what real feminism is-- The clay origin was a way for a child to be born to the isloated and immortal amazon queen. It reinforced the feminine narrative and origin ( a girl born to the Queen of a nation of peaceful women who worshipped a Goddess of Love) as well as being a story about the power of love.

    However, my feeling is that a lot of male writers and readers are (maybe not terrified but) somehow threatened by that-- by the lack of a man or father in the birth of Diana. As other posters have mentioned, it's fine to have tons of stories and origins where the mother figure is either non-existant or barely there. But you have ONE purely female-centric origin and some guys just can't deal with it..... I'm not saying everyone who dislaikes the clay origin is that way, but.....

    M
    Maybe I interpret it wrong, but still I agree with your point: her origin is female-centric and usually the mother is not important at all. I do think a good many things about Wonder Woman challenge male readers and writers too much, so they end up diluting the character in various ways.

    To me, the core message of Wonder Woman is that the world in the hands of men has been mostly savage and inhumane, and humanity would better served if women were in charge. And I think to really make WW tick you'd need a writer who believed that as much as WMM did.
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  14. #284
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    The only thing wrong with the clay origin is it makes her seem like less of a person and more of a Golem.

  15. #285
    U dont need my user title brettc1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stk View Post
    The only thing wrong with the clay origin is it makes her seem like less of a person and more of a Golem.
    To me, that is like saying Aquaman's powers make him seem less like a person and more like a fish.
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