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  1. #241
    Creator Bill Finger The Bat-Man's Avatar
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    Gershon Legman wrote an article called “The Comic Books and the Public” in the July, 1948 issue of the American Journal of Psychotherapy. Because comic books contained aggressively violent content, Legman vilifies the readers as channeling aggression "against parents, teachers and policemen who are the real sources of the child's frustration, and therefore the real objects of his aggression." Legman claimed that Superman's effect on an American child is worse than a Nazi's effect on a German child.

    Hilde L. Mosse, M.D., in her article "Aggression and Violence in Fantasy and Fact" in the July, 1948 issue of the American Journal of Psychotherapy, she also vilifies comic book readers as "aggressive, and fantasying to commit an act of cruelty and cause pain in others."

    Paula Elkisch, Ph.D, in her article "The Child's Conflict about Comic Books" in the July, 1948 issue of the American Journal of Psychotherapy, she said that comic books motivated dangerous imitation.

    Marvin L. Blumberg, M.D., his his article "The Practical Aspects of the Bad Influences of Comic Books" in the July, 1948 issue of the American Journal of Psychotherapy, claimed that comic books "awaken the sado-masochism which lies dormant in children."

    John Mason Brown wrote an article called "The Case Against the Comics" in the March 20, 1948 issue of the Saturday Review of Literature. John Mason Brown ranted, "The comic books… seem to me to be not only trash but the lowest, most despicable and most harmful and unethical form of trash.”

    Judith Crist wrote an article called "Horror in the Nursery" in the March 27, 1948 issue of Collier's Weekly. Crist said "There are books of well-known comics which make life better by making it merrier. There are others that make it clear, even to the dullest mind, that crime never pays. With such there is no quarrel. The books deplored here are those which attempt to make violence, sadism and crime attractive, which ignore common morals, which appeal chiefly to the worst in human nature. "

    Yet Crist quoted Fredric Wertham extensively in the article. Wertham blamed comic books as the inspiration for all youth crime.

    Fredric Wertham was a German psychiatrist working as the senior psychiatrist at Bellevue Hospital and LaFargue Clinic in New York psychoanalyzing mentally disturbed people and blamed comic books as the cause.

    An article called "Puddles of Blood" in the March 29, 1948 issue of Time magazine basically regurgitating various ideas from Wertham's symposium.

    In October 26, 1948 comic books were burned in Spencer, West Virginia. American citizens began burning books like Nazis. Comic books were also burned in Binghamton, New York, featured in the December 20th, 1948 issue of Time magazine. In Rumson, New Jersey, a group of young Cub Scouts conducted a two-day drive to collect comic books, which would be burned in Rumson’s Victory Park. The Scout that collected the most books won the right to light the blaze. At the last minute a decision was made to recycle and not burn the books. In Cape Girardeau, Missouri, a troop of Girl Scouts collected comic books and brought them to students at St. Mary’s, a Catholic high school, where a mock trial was held and, after finding the books guilty of “leading young people astray and building up false conceptions in the minds of youth,” the comic books were burned. In Chicago, a burning was organized by a Catholic Diocese. In Vancouver, Canada, nearly 8,000 comics were set ablaze by the JayCee Youth Leadership.
    http://www.thegraphicnovels.com/nsp1-21.html
    http://cbldf.org/2012/06/1948-the-ye...t-their-match/

    There were many comic books that were forced out of distribution because many stores wouldn't carry them any longer due to such public disdain.
    Harold Chamberlain, DC's circulation director in the Golden Age, explained in 1954 at the senate hearing, "We had an experience just yesterday where our Wholesaler in Cleveland, Ohio, called me to tell me that, because of the adverse publicity toward comic magazines that appeared in the paper in Cleveland, he had one of his larger dealers who operates 4 or 5 supermarket outlets, and who is doing a tremendous volume on comics, call him up and discontinue all comics. He said he would not be bothered trying to disseminate what was good and what was bad. Our wholesaler could do nothing about it. He had to take out all of the comics that the man was handling, and he was selling vast quantity of them."
    http://www.thecomicbooks.com/chamberlain.html

    The people against comic books seemed to think that all comic books were aimed strictly for children, rather than all-ages. This book excerpt is from Comix: A History of Comic Books in America by Les Daniels.

    In his autobiography Batman & Me, Bob Kane in fact explained that Batman and Robin had been intended for two audiences, both adults and kids.


    A lot of my information is from the book Of Nightingales and Supermen: How Youth Services Librarians Responded by Carol Tilley.
    http://www.unz.org/Pub/AmMercury-1941apr-00411

    Demanding Respect: The Evolution of the American Comic Book by Paul Lopes.

    The Ten-Cent Plague: The Great Comic-Book Scare and How It Changed America by David Hajdu.
    Last edited by The Bat-Man; 12-29-2012 at 03:56 AM.
    Jerry Siegel/Joe Shuster, Bill Finger/Bob Kane, William Moulton Marston. Creators of the most enduring iconic archetypes of the comic book superhero genre and its powerful legacy.

  2. #242
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bat-Man
    Batman Beyond comic books were made after the series had ended.
    The original comics were made when the show was on the air and ended as soon as the show did, to make way for "Justice League Adventures" and the new "Batman Adventures". The current comics are the result of a fan demand.

    Again, I'm not saying that films or comic books or video games or gangsta rap music or satanic metal music or neo-nazi punk music turns anyone into sociopaths, but it can negatively influence impressionable kids lacking any positive morality in their upbringing. Those kids that turned out fine had good moral education from somewhere, parents or mentors, positive role models. Guidance, which is all beneficial in upbringing. Not from a broken home without any guidance.
    Even those who have come from broken homes, turn out well without the influence of comics, but because they wind up finding someone in their lives that prove to be a good role model.

    Nah, I'm an optimist. I believe that if truly all-ages comic books featuring the iconic versions of the characters with short stories that are easily accessible to new readers were actually sold in places most people regularly visit such as supermarkets, next to the checkout stands, then they would actually notice their existence, and then they might actually pick up one and buy one, and some who bought them might actually become regular comic book buyers. They should do affordable monthly reprints of the single issue classic stories like "Why Must There Be a Superman" and "The Joker's Five-Way Revenge" that were easily accessible to new readers in single issues.
    The problem is magazine sales are down across the board and many are ending their print run, in favor of digital. And even when comics were in supermarkets and retail stores, I seldomly saw a kid looking at them.

    Not if they want to follow a comic title that ends up leading them into a crossover storyline, then they have to buy multiple comic book titles a month just to read that storyline. They are only getting a small unsatisfying part of a long story arc each issue rather than a complete story, which I believe is one of the biggest hurtles and turn-offs to potential new readers and casual readers with shorter attention spans.
    No, they don't have to read it. That's the point you miss. When "The Final Night" came out, I only stuck to the main books that I was reading. I didn't have to get everything to get the whole story.

    The Johnny DC line and the Marvel Adventures Kids line is pandering to one audience - children, rather than truly being written for "all-ages." Which limits the consumers for those books by being marginalized as kid books. Even when I was a kid I didn't want to read a dumbed down kiddie Superman storybook. Even when I was a kid I remember hating being treated like a little kid. There was never a need for a separate line before for so-called "all-ages." "All-ages" doesn't mean kiddie or dumbed down. John Byrne explained his all-ages approach to writing Superman, "As with everything -- or almost everything -- I write, I tried to make my Superman stories 'layered', so that readers who came back to them a few years, or even decades, after their first reading would find elements to the story that they had not noticed before. This is what I would define as an 'All-Ages' approach, rather than adult or 'grown-up'."
    None of those books are truly dumbed down. "Young Justice" is no more dumbed down than the original comic series that preceded it. Same with "The Batman Adventures" and "Scooby-Doo". I mean, let's face it, grown-ups watch Scooby and it's not the most intellectually stimulating cartoon around. If you have ever read the DCAU comics that were based off the shows, you'd know that as well. I can't speak for "Marvel Adventures" books, but I can for the DCAU.

  3. #243
    Creator Bill Finger The Bat-Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    The original comics were made when the show was on the air and ended as soon as the show did, to make way for "Justice League Adventures" and the new "Batman Adventures". The current comics are the result of a fan demand.
    They thought more Batman Beyond comics would sell to Batman Beyond fans, so they released a second series of it. They publish what they think will sell.

    Even those who have come from broken homes, turn out well without the influence of comics, but because they wind up finding someone in their lives that prove to be a good role model.
    Some find someone in their lives that prove to be a good role model giving them good moral guidance. Not all find that. In the past they were able to find good morals in comic books. I'd like to see more heart-felt moral messages in comics again.

    And even when comics were in supermarkets and retail stores, I seldomly saw a kid looking at them.
    Which, again, I blame on content. When I was a kid in the '70s and early '80s, I and other kids looked at comic books and bought them from supermarkets. The comic books content was easily accessible for new readers with short stories, featuring the iconic versions of the characters that general audiences knew, written for a wide audience of all-ages, and included some relevance, some heart-felt moral messages, etc. And while there were other forms of entertainment people were into, they still bought comic books. That was also before DC moved more and more comics to the direct sales market only available at comic shops, as comics began moving out of the mainstream public eye to their current closeted, isolated state.

    No, they don't have to read it. That's the point you miss. When "The Final Night" came out, I only stuck to the main books that I was reading. I didn't have to get everything to get the whole story.
    With most crossover story arcs they do need to buy multiple comic book titles a month just to read that storyline. I'm not missing any of your rather repetitive "points" as you are repeating the same things over and over again. We are both repeating ourselves still, because we disagree on this topic.

    None of those books are truly dumbed down. "Young Justice" is no more dumbed down than the original comic series that preceded it. Same with "The Batman Adventures" and "Scooby-Doo". I mean, let's face it, grown-ups watch Scooby and it's not the most intellectually stimulating cartoon around. If you have ever read the DCAU comics that were based off the shows, you'd know that as well. I can't speak for "Marvel Adventures" books, but I can for the DCAU.
    I didn't call those comics you've brought up dumbed down. Young Justice was essentially an exception, aimed more at young teens but it is canceled, so I wasn't referring to that. I said "even when I was a kid I didn't want to read a dumbed down kiddie Superman storybook." With that sentence, as the mention of a Superman storybook would denote, I was referring specifically to Superman Family Adventures and those DC Super Friends storybooks that are in supermarkets.

    Instead of this approach aimed at young children with such an obviously kiddie version of the characters, which ultimately limits the audience, I feel they should be truly aiming at all-ages, and feature the iconic versions of the characters in stories truly aimed at all-ages as DC did with those comics in Cheerios cereal boxs with General Mills in January 2012, which even persuaded me to buy Cheerios, not my favorite cereal.
    Last edited by The Bat-Man; 12-29-2012 at 03:55 AM.
    Jerry Siegel/Joe Shuster, Bill Finger/Bob Kane, William Moulton Marston. Creators of the most enduring iconic archetypes of the comic book superhero genre and its powerful legacy.

  4. #244
    Astral God Surtur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flottanna View Post
    Superman is my favorite character and he always has been. But at the moment I feel that both Superman titles are pretty poor at best, It just doesn't feel or look like superman. I really wish my favorite Sup team would get back together. Geoff Johns and Gary Frank.
    To be a honest I think a lot of writers just don't know how to write Superman well. I think they sometimes don't get the character or they get the character as he was decades ago.

    I can't necessarily blame them since it is always a challenge to write good stories for powerful people and especially someone like Superman who is not one of those massively powerful characters who has only a few appearances. I think writing powerful characters well is what separates the great writers from the mediocre ones.
    Last edited by Surtur; 12-28-2012 at 06:48 AM.
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  5. #245
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bat-Man
    They thought more Batman Beyond comics would sell to Batman Beyond fans, so they released a second series of it. They publish what they think will sell.
    It only started when there was a demand to begin with and that was after JLU ended and after Terry was seen in the pages of Superman/Batman, back in 2005-06. It continued until DC tested the waters and it went from there. "Superman Beyond" was the result of continuing to test the waters by having him in the fourth Superman/Batman Annual and it went from there. But that still doesn't change, that when the show ended, the comic ended at about the same time. Sales don't matter in that area. Promoting a cartoon matters. It's similar to when cartoons are created to promote toys. When one series ends, they create a different one to sell new toys and the comics created to tie-in are changed as well.

    Some find someone in their lives that prove to be a good role model giving them good moral guidance. Not all find that. In the past they were able to find good morals in comic books. I'd like to see more heart-felt moral messages in comics again.
    We don't know how many found good morals in comics. They could have the best examples and still turn out to be assholes.

    Which, again, I blame on content. When I was a kid in the '70s and early '80s, I and other kids looked at comic books and bought them from supermarkets. The comic books content was easily accessible for new readers with short stories, featuring the iconic versions of the characters that general audiences knew, written for a wide audience of all-ages, and included some relevance, some heart-felt moral messages, etc. And while there were other forms of entertainment people were into, they still bought comic books. That was also before DC moved more and more comics to the direct sales market only available at comic shops, as comics began moving out of the mainstream public eye to their current closeted, isolated state.
    Content is not the issue. Not when these kids are seeing content without a moral message and very age restrictive. If kids are seeing R rated films and playing violent video games, I guarantee you that what goes on in a comic isn't going to affect their reading habits. And any kid that came into comics would go by the versions that they saw. Hence some who came in the 90's, grew up with Kyle Rayner and not Hal Jordan as their GL. Same with Wally West and Barry Allen. Moral messages and a lack thereof did not drive readers away. Other forms of entertainment and the stigma of comics did so.

    With most crossover story arcs they do need to buy multiple comic book titles a month just to read that storyline. I'm not missing any of your rather repetitive "points" as you are repeating the same things over and over again. We are both repeating ourselves still, because we disagree on this topic.
    No one has to buy all of the stories in "Death Of The Family", the current crossover in the Bat books. They can choose to do so or not. If they don't, that's okay because they still get the bulk of it. DC stopped relying on the crossover issues to tell the full story like they did with "Millennium" and "Invasion" started relying on the style used in "The Final Night", "Infinite Crisis" and "Blackest Night".

    I didn't call those comics you've brought up dumbed down. Young Justice was essentially an exception, aimed more at young teens but it is canceled, so I wasn't referring to that.
    It was not an exception. It was the norm. Same with GL. It's only canceled because the show is done at the end of this season. But there will be another show with "Beware The Batman" and down the line, one for Superman.

    I said "even when I was a kid I didn't want to read a dumbed down kiddie Superman storybook." With that sentence, as the mention of a Superman storybook would denote, I was referring specifically to Superman Adventures and those DC Super Friends storybooks that are in supermarkets.
    You didn't, other kids do. Not every child is the same. The fact that these books are still published shows that there is a market for them.

  6. #246
    Creator Bill Finger The Bat-Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    Sales don't matter in that area.
    Sales always matters.

    We don't know how many found good morals in comics. They could have the best examples and still turn out to be assholes.
    I've already shown you many examples of the positive effects that morals have had on people. Apparently you completely missed it all, or you couldn't care less about morality. It is beneficial educationally in the upbringing of children, giving moral messages for impressionable kids in their formative years. When I was growing up we had our moralistic comic books for all-ages, as well as The Shazam!/Isis Hour on TV, which helped teach us right from wrong and gave us positive heroes to look up to, which is something kids still need, especially in this day and age of single parent families, deadbeat dads, etc.

    As Harlan Ellison said on the Legends of the Dark Knight: The History of Batman documentary, "My generation learned right from wrong, good from evil, the ethical and moral thing to do, from comic books."
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAiJyvjb-1I

    As Jackson Bostwick/Captain Marvel, star of the Shazam! TV series, said on Flashback, "Kids get away will a lot of stuff and when their 13 and parents decide they gotta reprimand 'em there's gonna be resentment because they never had it in their lives. Like a puppy when he just goes to the bathroom on the floor, he doesn't know any better, he needs to be trained, it's the same with a kid, and if you have the superheroes, whether it's comic book form, or cartoon form, or like we did a live-action form where they can be able to have the message slipped to 'em, without preaching to 'em, that's where you can really make a mark on kids lives. And that's what needs to be brought back. You get somebody who never had that, were never introduced to it as a child, they had to go out struggling and everything and all they know is the street violence and stuff like that, that's where they get into trouble."
    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/flashba...on-flashback-w

    Jackson Bostwick/Captain Marvel said, "To me, the most effective part of the show was not even in the initial episodes when they first started airing, but which eventually became the icing on the cake for the series. It was the end tags, when Captain Marvel flies back and talks to the audience about what they learned in that week’s episode. Right after they first aired, I told the Producer, Bob Chenault, that they missed the boat by not having the hero come back and wrap things up, ala The Lone Ranger, Cisco Kid, Sgt. Preston of the Yukon, etc. He told me that the network didn’t want to give up the 60 seconds of commercial time. Well, after the fan mail started arriving and indicated that they wanted to see more of Captain Marvel (not just in the last 15 minutes of the story), the gang at CBS in New York finally relented and we went back and filmed those tags for those first 15 episodes in one day out at Franklin Canyon Reservoir in Bel-Air. (It was important) not to preach to the kids and to give them a friend and someone to look up to, like I had with Clayton Moore as the Lone Ranger when I was growing up."
    http://www.newsarama.com/comics/oral...-7-110103.html

    Jackson Bostwick/Captain Marvel explained the impact the moral messages had on people in FilmFax magazine #112 (2006):


    Brian Cutler/Rick Mason explained the impact the moral messages had on people on the Secrets of Isis DVD set by BCI, "Isis was the first Saturday morning heroine, and a lot of people watched TV on Saturday mornings, both youngsters and oldsters. It had a great appeal because it had a message and a moral in every single episode. Over the years, as surprisingly as it may seem, I've received dozens and dozens and dozens of emails from people all over the country, if not the world, commenting about the show and how it changed their lives. For example last year I received an email from a very very successful person in New York whose a stock broker who happens to be Chinese. He told me all of this in his email, and he was sending me the email because everybody that he grew up with in his neighborhood was either dead or in jail, and he attributed his success to watching The Shazam!/Isis Hour every Saturday morning and it gave him a path to follow. Now the impact of that on me, receiving an email like that, when your not aware of the impact you have at the time your doing something is phenomenal. And I just received an email the other day from someone saying, 'Oh, I loved your show, I loved you on Emergency, I loved your guest star work, but Isis was such an important part of my life.' And it's interesting and unique to see the impact that the show had on people, and still has on people. Wonderful email praising the show and the message and the moral and the lessons because, as I say and have said for years, there was a lesson and a message in every single episode of the show and those were all very good, necessary things and it gave people something to hang onto. If somebody were to ask me, whats the legacy of Isis? I would say, the depth, the moral issues. The strength that it gave people to go on with their lives. There are so many people over the years that have emailed me about how Isis changed their life. It's amazing how many different people have emailed me over the years that the messages that they received from Isis came at a time when they were down and out and it changed something in their life. And I get this from people of every walk of life, every ethnicity, every background, so hopefully, and I say this very seriously, because I don't know that people have a lot of heroes to look towards anymore, and maybe what this will do with the new DVD coming out, maybe this will give people maybe a little inspiration, maybe a new message said in an old way that they hadn't thought about before, but will allow them to look at life a little differently and with more enlightenment."

    Joanna Pang Atkins/Cindy Lee said on the Secrets of Isis DVD set by BCI, "The series is uplifting and positive and it always has a great message and I think that's important. I work with a lot of children now and at the school I am at now they talk about character education all the time. Even at some of the high schools they are talking about character education. It's respect and citizenship and just having a good character and the Isis series instills that."

    Denny O'Neil remembered the effect of Superman's words against racism had on him when he was a kid listening to the Adventures of Superman radio show in the 1940s. "The Superman radio show, I know, gave me my first peek into race situations because I remember, I was a avid listener of that show, if you can imagine little Denny O’Neil standing listening to mommy’s radio, every afternoon at 5:15," he said with a laugh. "And Superman once said that the difference in skin color was only due to a chemical. And that was the first time I ever heard anything like that. It is now 66 years later or so, and I still remember it."
    http://www.newsarama.com/comics/2011...ary-11027.html

    Content is not the issue.
    Content always is an issue that matters. If someone doesn't like the content, chances are they wont buy it.

    No one has to buy all of the stories in "Death Of The Family", the current crossover in the Bat books. They can choose to do so or not.
    Is someone holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy? Of course not, and that is obviously not what I'm saying at all, which should be obvious to anyone. I've made my point perfectly clear multiple times.

    It's only canceled because the show is done at the end of this season.
    Sales drive what continues being published. Sorry, but that is the reality. Were Young Justice comics top sellers for DC? Nope. If it was a huge seller I guarantee you DC wouldn't be canceling it. And if the shows viewership was stronger then Cartoon Network wouldn't cancel the show.

    You didn't, other kids do. Not every child is the same. The fact that these books are still published shows that there is a market for them.
    Superman Family Adventures is a new comic. Is it a top seller? No. DC Super Friends isn't a long running book series either. And I see it languishing on store shelves.
    Last edited by The Bat-Man; 12-29-2012 at 05:44 AM.
    Jerry Siegel/Joe Shuster, Bill Finger/Bob Kane, William Moulton Marston. Creators of the most enduring iconic archetypes of the comic book superhero genre and its powerful legacy.

  7. #247
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bat-Man
    Sales always matters.
    Not for a product with a shelf life, which an animated series like YJ has.

    I've already shown you many examples of the positive effects that morals have had on people. Apparently you completely missed it all, or you couldn't care less about morality. It is beneficial educationally in the upbringing of children, giving moral messages for impressionable kids in their formative years. When I was growing up we had our moralistic comic books for all-ages, as well as The Shazam!/Isis Hour on TV, which helped teach us right from wrong and gave us positive heroes to look up to, which is something kids still need, especially in this day and age of single parent families, deadbeat dads, etc.
    The heroes in comics do inspire and show goodness and charity. None of which changes that there is nothing wrong with the Joker slicing his face off and Batman having sex with Catwoman. Does there need to be a moral lesson in that?

    Content always is an issue that matters. If someone doesn't like the content, chances are they wont buy it.
    You can say that about the comics of the late 50's. You can say that about Harry Potter and the right wing religious nuts. If a parent doesn't like what they see in Detective Comics #13 (2012), or Detective Comics #327, there's nothing that can be done about it. And the kids, well, they aren't going to care too much considering the content that they digest as it is. Unless they're like the Flanders.

    Is someone holding a gun to your head forcing you to buy? Of course not, and that is obviously not what I'm saying at all, which should be obvious to anyone. I've made my point perfect clear multiple times.
    Your point has a flaw in it. That's what I'm pointing out. Anyone who feels the need to buy it all, does so because they are a completest. Not because they aren't smart enough to figure it out. And besides, shouldn't we be encouraging people to buy more comics? Like I said earlier, I bought certain comics because of a crossover and thus that title/character gained one more reader.

    Sales drive what continues being published. Sorry, but that is the reality. Were Young Justice comics top sellers for DC? Nope. If it was a huge seller I guarantee you DC wouldn't be canceling it. And if the shows viewership was stronger than Cartoon Network wouldn't cancel the show.
    "Batman: The Animated Series" had a strong following and the comic had strong sales, but DC cancelled the comic.

    Superman Family Adventures is a new comic. Is it a top seller? No. DC Super Friends isn't a long running book series either. And I see it languishing on store shelves.
    A lot of comics aren't top sellers, but are still on the shelves. If the book were written by Johns and Morrison, it would sell.

  8. #248
    Paladin Kurosawa's Avatar
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    yahoo poll:

    Who's the greatest superhero?

    Batman

    25%

    Spider-Man

    12%

    Superman

    63%

    Thank you for voting.
    371,722 votes

    Peter Parker's perilous predicament

    It's not like Bats and Spidey are slouches or anything, either. The reports of Superman's (popularity) death might be greatly exaggerated. Of course, this is one small poll on a pretty mainstream website; then again Nate Silver made his massively accurate election predictions on smaller numbers than this.

    TL;DR: People still and always will love Superman.
    Doomed Planet. Desperate Scientists. Last Hope. Kindly Couple.

  9. #249
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Superman's death was also the first time such an event made mainstream press. Over the next twenty years, we've had imitators galore. People have gotten wise to such stunts.

  10. #250
    Elder Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Remember when Superman had good taste?
    Congress shall make no law . . . abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

  11. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bat-Man View Post
    The question that matters to me: is it any better than that old degrading stereotype of women as sluts just looking to get laid?
    This is possibly the sexist comment I've seen on the site that's home to Lexrules. Starfire is not a "slut" as you claim but instead someone who wants sex. Everyone wants sex. Batman has had 6 relationships in the New 52 and is he a "slut". That's seems like something you should be worrying about. Batman had sex twice in less than a month. Starfire has had relationships with 2 men in the New 52 and one of them was a throwaway flashback reference. But apperently she's the "slut". I see alot more films and TV portraying men as sluts who just want to get laid, alot more than those who portray women. In media most men are just looking for two things according to Tiger Woods in the legendary Plinkett review:

    1. Is she hot?

    2. Dude, how hot is she?

    TL;DR your opinion is dumb and sexist.

    The Earth 2 Wonder Woman's impalement through the chest and death is not only gratuitous, but also strikes me as misogynistic, appealing to the baser instincts of the largely-male audience. Both the Earth 2 Superman and Batman at least get the dignity of dying in explosions without any gratuitous detail, yet Wonder Woman gets impaled straight through the chest by a male attacker in close up view, as Supergirl and Robin watch.
    Daredevil got brutally murdered in "End of Days" and no one cried sexism. If DC was pandering to the horny demographic she'd be having threesomes with Batman and Superman not being stabbed.

  12. #252
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I thought E-2 Superman being disintegrated to the bone was showing some detail. No it wasn't as "clear" as Wonder Woman's moment of death but you can't still see his body basically evaporating. Furthermore the more personal nature of Diana's death at Steppenwolf's hand will be part and parcel to the characterization of Fury, so its not without storytelling purpose. So I think its short-sighted just to call it a misogynistic scene meant to sate the baser instincts of male readers.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-30-2012 at 03:54 PM.

  13. #253
    Creator Bill Finger The Bat-Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I thought E-2 Superman being disintegrated to the bone was showing some detail. No it wasn't as "clear" as Wonder Woman's moment of death but you can't still see his body basically evaporating. Furthermore the more personal nature of Diana's death at Steppenwolf's hand will be part and parcel to the characterization of Fury, so its not without storytelling purpose. So I think its short-sighted just to call it a misogynistic scene meant to sate the baser instincts of male readers.
    I find it needlessly gratuitous and distasteful.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquacatlungfish View Post
    This is possibly the sexist comment I've seen on the site that's home to Lexrules. Starfire is not a "slut" as you claim but instead someone who wants sex. Everyone wants sex. Batman has had 6 relationships in the New 52 and is he a "slut"
    I was pointing out how the portrayal of Starfire in Red Hood and the Outlaws is the old degrading stereotype of women as sluts just looking to get laid. The portrayal of a man just looking to get laid isn't any better. There is a difference between the portrayal of any character, male or female, wanting to have sex with someone they actually love and have or at least want a relationship with, and the portrayal of a character having sex with random people they don't love out of boredom.
    Jerry Siegel/Joe Shuster, Bill Finger/Bob Kane, William Moulton Marston. Creators of the most enduring iconic archetypes of the comic book superhero genre and its powerful legacy.

  14. #254
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Fair enough. To me I think it will prove pivotal however on an emotional level, the reader knowing the violent manner that she died and thus know Fury's own pain when she finds out how her mentor murdered her mother (at least I'm anticipating her turning out to be Diana's daughter). But I respect finding the scene distastful. Misogynistic not so much, I find that to be a very strong accusation bordering on the insulting to James Robinson as an individual without some solid evidence behind it, which you don't have in this case.

  15. #255
    Veteran Member Fate's Faith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mat001 View Post
    Superman's death was also the first time such an event made mainstream press. Over the next twenty years, we've had imitators galore. People have gotten wise to such stunts.
    Bit interesting to note that every time DC makes news its due to something concerning Superman. There was a nice amount of coverage about the new 52 because the marriage between Clark and Lois was being erased. Remember the news of his death and their wedding also. Really, I think when you say they are doing something to Superman, even if they aren't reading, the general public has an interest.

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