Superman is suffering.

[Mat001]

Those new conflicts you sight, such as Superman spit in two with a Superman Red and Superman Blue, etc. were short term stunts in attempts to boost sales and try to top the Death of Superman, as Jon Bogdanove said in Wizard magazine #194 (2007):

Yes, I know that. None the less, regardless of it being a stunt, it was still part of the story. Lois and Clark both faced a new challenge after getting married.

A few road bumps from some event stunts like Superman Red and Superman Blue. It was a happy marriage for the most part.

I never said that it wasn't a happy marriage. But even happy marriages have road bumps, leading to conflicts between the two. Just like in real life.

Sales that are considered "very well" today would have gotten the book canceled years ago. As John Byrne said, "The final, and most devastating stage came, of course, when those shrunken sales were accepted, and even applauded. (Remember a few years back when one of the Spider-Man writers showed up in this Forum celebrating the 'huge' sales on the latest issues -- sales that would have gotten the book canceled a few years earlier? The triumph of mediocrity and diminished expectations.)"

Those shrunken sales had more to do with the stupid attempts at undoing the marriage and the declining comic book market, then the fact that Spider-Man was even married at all.

The US Census lists middle age as 35 to 54.

The Census is not the be all, end all of what is considered middle age. The majority of people consider middle age to be their fifties and have for decades.

That was John Byrne's math, hence the quotations and the link. John Byrne explained that he was told in the late '90s that Dick was 26 by that point

Aging in comic book time always changes. Every few years, there was a push back to get the characters back to a certain age. This was talked about in both Marvel and DC letter columns.

This is not all ages appropriate:
This is from the regular Catwoman comic rated "T+" for "teen plus" which DC says is "Appropriate for readers age 16":

Which was no different from this...



But there are still stories for all ages.





Besides, kids watch the Batman films and see some gruesome stuff there even when it's labeled PG-13. They watched Wolverine kill people in "X-2" and Captain America fight in a war.

People are less likely to pay for comics pages on their computer off of the DC site when they can rely on Bit Torrent sites where they can get the pages on their computer for free.

I never said otherwise. That was my point. Kids are reading it, whether they pay for it or not, they're reading it. And as to paying for comics, if they pay for music, they'll pay for comics and magazines.

Either way, as I said, if your computer gets a virus and crashes, you'd have lost your comic pages if their just images on your comp, without the actual physical comic books in your position.

Right because your house/apartment won't catch fire, be damaged in an earthquake, be destroyed by a hurricane or a tornado. No, none of those things couldn't possibly happen.

The comic book companies choose to leave the newsstand market and sell all comics through the Direct Sales Market comic shops, which keep and sell back issues, so that all sales would produce the highest possible profits for the companies without any unsold comics being returned to the publishers. Books that go unsold go back to the publisher. And that's the price publishers have to pay for mass distribution of their product in mainstream stores.

It wasn't all choosing to leave, they were kicked out.

DC comics selling at Toys R Us are the Johnny DC comics Scooby-Doo, Where Are You?, Superman Family Adventures, Eme-Comi Girls: Featuring Batgirl, pandering to one audience - little children, limits the consumers for those books.

Not all of that is that. Green Lantern, Uncanny X-Men and Detective Comics have been reported being carried as well.

Barnes & Noble, Hastings, military BX's and Half Price Books carry the high priced TPB graphic novels aimed at the adult readers.

They carry monthly books as well. Hastings has always carried monthly books as well as trades and four years ago, they struck a deal to carry more monthly books, in order to compete with the comic book stores. Barnes & Noble also carries monthly books. Three years back, I went with my mother to the BX in the state where I live, to take advantage of lower prices for holiday shopping. They carry monthly books. HPB has boxes of comics that are collected from local dealers as well as people who sold their collection. I've managed to get comics from the 80's and 90's, as well as newer books from the last five years since one opened in my neck of the woods. I've even seen parents go through the boxes with their kids. I can get 50 cents for a comic that's unbagged, a dollar for one that is bagged and pay regular price for something that's been out for three to four years. I've even seen classic comics from the Silver and Bronze Age, which are kept separate due to the price of said book.

I believe that the low sales of DC and Marvel monthlies are mostly due to four factors - the monthly content being long and gimmicky continuity-heavy story arc stunts where you are only getting a small unsatisfying part of a long story arc rather than a complete story, which is one of the biggest hurtles and turn-offs to new readers and casual readers, along with reboots radically altering iconic characters, plus too many comics they are really not for all-ages and most are not sold in mainstream stores which prevents parents from buying the majority of the comics for their kids.

The same thing happens in the films, television and animated mediums. Batman's had four actors in twenty years and just went through one reboot and will go into another. Superman had three television shows in a twenty five year period. We had Brandon Routh six years ago and now we've got Henry Cavill (sp). Spider-Man just got rebooted this past summer. "Batman: The Brave & The Bold" is about to be replaced by "Beware The Batman". "Smallville" gave us a Green Arrow for five years and now we've got another one in his own series called "Arrow". The Hulk is on his third actor.

As to long stories, that's the nature of the industry as a whole. A lot of ongoing television is less episodic and more serial. Even in animation that's happened.

Not enough kids attend Free Comic Book Day held at the shrinking number of comic book stores.

Not from where I'm at.

More availability is important to making comic books more accessible. DC and Marvel really should shift business practices. They really should expand the comic book marketplace again - get comics back into all the venues in which they used to be available before the Direct Sales Market shrank everything to its present closeted state.

They did that. DC, Marvel, Dark Horse, Image and Bongo Comics all did that between 2004 and 2007. It failed.

Imagine newspapers or a magazine like Time magazine being taken out of the newsstand and all the supermarkets and selling only through small, isolated specialty stores. Turning a mass market publication into a niche market publication.

Sadly, that doesn't matter because newspapers are a dying market as well. A good number have folded up their tents within the last twelve years. Newsweek is ending it's print publication and going to digital full time. Other magazines and newspapers are dying because of digital technology, resulting in the industry having to change gears.

The average non-comic reading person doesn't know where the nearest comic shop is, and doesn't see why he or she should care. But if the comics were actually sold in places most people regularly visit such as supermarkets, then they would actually notice their existence, and then they might actually pick up one and buy one, and some who bought them might actually become regular comic book buyers. All-age comics available in supermarkets without continuity-heavy story arcs could attract people of all-age groups again.

They weren't caring when it was in places like grocery stores, gas stations, pharmacies and retail stores.

[Lotech]

I prefer Superman to be someone inspiring, that I can look up to (no pun intended).

[The Bat-Man]

I prefer Superman to be someone inspiring, that I can look up to (no pun intended).

So do I. I prefer superheroes to be heroic and admirable. Uplifting and inspiring.

I don't see what's so offensive about this. At 12, the "wanna have sex with me" would have make me laugh,

We are limited to three pictures per post so I left out the other Red Hood and the Outlaws parts rated "T" for "teen" which DC says are "Appropriate for readers age 12 and up" that many do not regard as appropriate for 12 year olds. With the superhero Starfire (whom the general public know from the Teen Titans cartoons) objectified in a thong and asking for sex out of boredom, stating that it's not about love, and shown obviously naked in bed with her head submissively on the shoulder of the man, after obviously having had meaningless sex with someone she doesn't even love. This is certainly not sending positive messages to 12 year olds.

and by that time I saw worse in Jurassic Park or Robin Hood Prince of Thieves (mmmm, the guy getting his hand cut by the muslim.....) than Wonder Woman getting stabbed.

Wonder Woman is impaled through the chest and killed in the Earth 2 comic rated "T" for "teen" which DC says are "Appropriate for readers age 12 and up." Dr. Ellie Sattler wasn't impaled through the chest and killed in Jurassic Park. Marian Dubois wasn't impaled through the chest and killed in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves.

Let's not kid ourself: most kid play GTA behind their parents' back, love it and don't turn into psychos.

I've never claimed that kids will turn into psychos from playing the Grand Theft Auto video games. The games are rated appropriately "M" for "Mature," so if kids are playing it behind their parents' back, then that's the parents fault, not an inappropriate rating on the video games. As I said, I have no problem with DC publishing some comics with some adult content, however, they should at least be labeled appropriately, like DC's Vertigo line is.

With all due to respect to Mr. Byrne- and that's a whole lot, since I enjoyed many aspects of his Supes reboot- that is just a load of crock. I am barely out of my teens and I find the marriage scenario not to be 'middle age situation for middle age guys' at all.

Opinions on the marriage vary. Byrne is entitled to his opinion of the marriage, we are each entitled to agree or disagree. The fact is that DC did officially make Superman a middle aged 35 year old with Zero Hour, and that happened in 1994 even before they were allowed to go forward with the marriage in 1996 (Superman became engaged to Lois in 1991). As our pal Mat001 even admitted, "about Superman being a middle aged guy, he was already that before he got engaged to Lois. The character's been in his thirties for years."
http://forums.comicbookresources.com...1#post16139452

[The Bat-Man]

Yes, I know that. None the less, regardless of it being a stunt, it was still part of the story. Lois and Clark both faced a new challenge after getting married.

I never said that it wasn't a happy marriage. But even happy marriages have road bumps, leading to conflicts between the two. Just like in real life.

Again, the iconic triangle with Lois is far more entertaining to me than her happily married to Superman. And we've been over all this already. You seem to be continuing to argue with me just to be argumentative. We are both repeating ourselves because you and I obviously differ. And no amount of back and forth arguing on our part is going to change the others preferences and point of view. We will just have to agree to disagree.

Those shrunken sales had more to do with the stupid attempts at undoing the marriage and the declining comic book market, then the fact that Spider-Man was even married at all.

Spider-Man sales were not hurt by undoing the marriage. You can see it just by looking at the sales charts.

The Census is not the be all, end all of what is considered middle age. The majority of people consider middle age to be their fifties and have for decades.

Come on. You yourself said, "about Superman being a middle aged guy, he was already that before he got engaged to Lois. The character's been in his thirties for years."
http://forums.comicbookresources.com...1#post16139452

Which was no different from this...

Very different. "Snowbirds Don't Fly" Green Lantern/Green Arrow #85 (1971) and "They Say It'll Kill Me... But They Won't Say When" Green Lantern/Green Arrow #86 (1971) was a two-part storyline for all-ages with a moral lesson about the dangers of drugs.

The entire Green Lantern/Green Arrow run by Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams was for all-ages with moral lessons trying to educate kids in particular as young as age 4, as well as a reminder to older people of Denny O'Neil's generation. Denny O'Neil explained, "What I wanted to do — if I had a mission — was to blow revelry. You know, 'Wake up! These problems exist!' I thought, well, it’s probably too late for my generation to solve them. I think I was in my early 30s. But if a kid is aware of these problems from age 4, and grows up being aware of them, and is a smart kid, maybe he will figure out answers that people of my generation couldn’t."
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/2011...ary-11027.html
Denny O'Neil explained, "The goal with regard to real life problems was to call attention to them. My theory was that, since I was in my 30s by then, it was probably too late for anybody of my generation to come up with real solutions. But if you got people thinking about these things early enough, in their formative years, in young adulthood, you might have a chance. If they're going to be in an intellectual ferment at any point in their lives, that's the point. So you try to reach the generation behind mine, or even my son's generation, call their attention to the problems, and maybe they'll be able to come up with solutions. As for my generation, well, it didn't hurt for them to be reminded that those problems existed."
http://www.forcesofgeek.com/2011/09/...flects-on.html
Denny O'Neil remembered the effect of Superman's words against racism had on him when he was a kid listening to the Adventures of Superman radio show in the 1940s. "The Superman radio show, I know, gave me my first peek into race situations because I remember, I was a avid listener of that show, if you can imagine little Denny O’Neil standing listening to mommy’s radio, every afternoon at 5:15," he said with a laugh. "And Superman once said that the difference in skin color was only due to a chemical. And that was the first time I ever heard anything like that. It is now 66 years later or so, and I still remember it."
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/2011...ary-11027.html
Which is very different than those Catwoman, Detective Comics, Red Hood and the Outlaws, and Earth 2 comics I brought up which are not for all-ages and depict sex and gore, etc. without any moral lessons what so ever.

[The Bat-Man]

But there are still stories for all ages.

Young Justice is being cancelled. Superman Adventures and the rest of the Johnny DC line is pandering to one audience - little children, rather than truly being written for all-ages, like Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams Green Lantern/Green Arrow, etc. was. John Byrne explained his all-ages approach to writing Superman, "As with everything -- or almost everything -- I write, I tried to make my Superman stories 'layered', so that readers who came back to them a few years, or even decades, after their first reading would find elements to the story that they had not noticed before. This is what I would define as an 'All-Ages' approach, rather than adult or 'grown-up'."
http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/f...512&PN=0&TPN=6

Besides, kids watch the Batman films and see some gruesome stuff there even when it's labeled PG-13. They watched Wolverine kill people in "X-2" and Captain America fight in a war.

They are appropriately rated PG-13 — Parents Strongly Cautioned. Some Material May Be Inappropriate For Children Under 13. Batman is not having sex with Catwoman in either Batman Returns or Dark Knight Rises. The Joker's skin cut off from his face isn't nailed to a wall in Batman (1989) or The Dark Knight (2008). Starfire is not wearing a thong and asking for sex, stating that it's not about love, and shown obviously naked in bed, obviously having had the sex in a movie or Teen Titans cartoon, Wonder Woman is not impaled through the chest and killed in a movie or the Wonder Woman TV show or the Wonder Woman animated movie or the Justice League cartoons.

I never said otherwise. That was my point. Kids are reading it, whether they pay for it or not, they're reading it. And as to paying for comics, if they pay for music, they'll pay for comics and magazines.

The vast majority of kids aren't reading comics today.

Right because your house/apartment won't catch fire, be damaged in an earthquake, be destroyed by a hurricane or a tornado. No, none of those things couldn't possibly happen.

The difference is people aren't killed from a computer virus and their computer crashing. If there is a fire, earthquake, hurricane, tornado, chances are you would die.

It wasn't all choosing to leave, they were kicked out.

The comic book companies choose to leave the newsstand market and sell all comics through the Direct Sales Market comic shops, which keep and sell back issues, so that all sales would produce the highest possible profits for the companies without any unsold comics being returned to the publishers. In mainstream stores the comics that go unsold go back to the publisher. And that's the price publishers have to pay for mass distribution of their product in mainstream stores.

They carry monthly books as well. Hastings has always carried monthly books as well as trades and four years ago, they struck a deal to carry more monthly books, in order to compete with the comic book stores. Barnes & Noble also carries monthly books. Three years back, I went with my mother to the BX in the state where I live, to take advantage of lower prices for holiday shopping. They carry monthly books. HPB has boxes of comics that are collected from local dealers as well as people who sold their collection. I've managed to get comics from the 80's and 90's, as well as newer books from the last five years since one opened in my neck of the woods. I've even seen parents go through the boxes with their kids. I can get 50 cents for a comic that's unbagged, a dollar for one that is bagged and pay regular price for something that's been out for three to four years. I've even seen classic comics from the Silver and Bronze Age, which are kept separate due to the price of said book.

If DC actually made their titles such as Detective Comics, etc. for all ages again they just might get those parents buying more comics for their kids.

The same thing happens in the films, television and animated mediums. Batman's had four actors in twenty years and just went through one reboot and will go into another. Superman had three television shows in a twenty five year period. We had Brandon Routh six years ago and now we've got Henry Cavill (sp). Spider-Man just got rebooted this past summer. "Batman: The Brave & The Bold" is about to be replaced by "Beware The Batman". "Smallville" gave us a Green Arrow for five years and now we've got another one in his own series called "Arrow". The Hulk is on his third actor.

Generally the most successful movies and TV shows of comic book characters have been the ones that are generally faithful to the versions from the comics.

As to long stories, that's the nature of the industry as a whole. A lot of ongoing television is less episodic and more serial. Even in animation that's happened.

Comics were at their most successful consistently when they featured short stories.

They weren't caring when it was in places like grocery stores, gas stations, pharmacies and retail stores.

You think comics wont sell in supermarkets and grocery stores regardless of content, and as you know, I disagree, and I say lets agree to disagree because it's obvious that no amount of back and forth arguing on our part is going to change the others point of view.

[Mat001]

We are limited to three pictures per post so I left out the other Red Hood and the Outlaws parts rated "T" for "teen" which DC says are "Appropriate for readers age 12 and up" that many do not regard as appropriate for 12 year olds. With the superhero Starfire (whom the general public know from the Teen Titans cartoons) objectified in a thong and asking for sex out of boredom, stating that it's not about love, and shown obviously naked in bed with her head submissively on the shoulder of the man, after obviously having had meaningless sex with someone she doesn't even love. This is certainly not sending positive messages to 12 year olds.

1. Most 12 year old boys have looked at Maxim magazine, the Victoria's Secret catalog, automotive magazines with bikini clad models, the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit issue and their older brother's adult magazines. Most 12 year old boys will use their computer or their friends to look up porn. Or failing that, those same scantly clad women online. They go to the swimming pool in the summer and see older teenage girls and young women in bikinis. If they have cable, they can watch Cinemax and Showtime late at night and get the softcore sex shows and films. I know that I did just about all of those things at that age.

2. Messages about women in general, well, sad to say, but unless the parents do their jobs, no one is at fault. And even then, most boys ignore it and will still objectify girls of the same age. Already in junior high, you've got kids either having oral sex or intercourse. In the former, it becomes a game. I'm not saying it is right, but even when parents do their job, it still falls to the kids to adhere to those moral guidelines. Saying that a book that's targeted at teenagers is wrong doesn't change that perception. Not when life itself doesn't follow along. Most teenagers already have that attitude towards intimacy.

3. Starfire was equally skimmpy back when she was first introduced and having premarital sex with Dick, in the 80's.

Wonder Woman is impaled through the chest and killed in the Earth 2 comic rated "T" for "teen" which DC says are "Appropriate for readers age 12 and up." Dr. Ellie Sattler wasn't impaled through the chest and killed in Jurassic Park. Marian Dubois wasn't impaled through the chest and killed in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves.

"Highlander: The Final Dimension" had five decapitations and two scenes where Connor MacLeod was stabbed in the gut with a sword. It was rated PG-13. "Indiana Jones & The Temple Of Doom" was PG rated and had a guy's heart ripped out, before he was set on fire. "Spider-Man" and "Spider-Man 3" had the Osborne's impaled. Both were PG-13. "The Dark Knight" had Harvey Dent's face caught on fire and his very gory face shown on screen afterwards. In "The Dark Knight Rises", Talia shanks Batman just like Lex Luthor did in "Superman Returns". Also PG-13. "X-Men" has Wolverine impaling Rogue and we see his claws go through her and out her back. Not the only time he kills people with his claws in the films.

And BTW, kids are also playing violent video games that are rated T for Teen or M for Mature. "Mortal Kombat" alone has sales that teenagers at that age play. Games with impalement, decapitations and more.

I've never claimed that kids will turn into psychos from playing the Grand Theft Auto video games. The games are rated appropriately "M" for "Mature," so if kids are playing it behind their parents' back, then that's the parents fault, not an inappropriate rating on the video games.

Not all play behind their backs.

As I said, I have no problem with DC publishing some comics with some adult content, however, they should at least be labeled appropriately, like DC's Vertigo line is.

They did. That's why they're using a similar system to the ESRB. Besides, kids that age read Vertigo titles back when it first launched. I was 12 when I first read "The Dark Knight Returns".

Opinions on the marriage vary. Byrne is entitled to his opinion of the marriage, we are each entitled to agree or disagree. The fact is that DC did officially make Superman a middle aged 35 year old with Zero Hour, and that happened in 1994 even before they were allowed to go forward with the marriage in 1996 (Superman became engaged to Lois in 1991). As our pal Mat001 even admitted, "about Superman being a middle aged guy, he was already that before he got engaged to Lois. The character's been in his thirties for years."

Which in no way affected sales, nor his popularity. Hell, most people assumed Superman was in his 30's, back in the Bronze Age. Aided by the fact that the actors portraying Superman was in their 30's and 40's. And readers don't give two shits if he's 25 or 35.

Again, the iconic triangle with Lois is far more entertaining to me than her happily married to Superman. And we've been over all this already. You seem to be continuing to argue with me just to be argumentative. We are both repeating ourselves because you and I obviously differ. And no amount of back and forth arguing on our part is going to change the others preferences and point of view. We will just have to agree to disagree.

Entertaining to you, not to everyone.

Spider-Man sales were not hurt by undoing the marriage. You can see it just by looking at the sales charts.

Course, publishing three times a month at $3.99 makes up for any loses.

Very different. "Snowbirds Don't Fly" Green Lantern/Green Arrow #85 (1971) and "They Say It'll Kill Me... But They Won't Say When" Green Lantern/Green Arrow #86 (1971) was a two-part storyline for all-ages with a moral lesson about the dangers of drugs.

Nope, because it still depicted a graphic image on the front and tackled adult subjects.

Young Justice is being cancelled.

And will be replaced with "Beware The Batman". Just like all the others.

Superman Adventures and the rest of the Johnny DC line is pandering to one audience - little children, rather than truly being written for all-ages, like Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams Green Lantern/Green Arrow, etc. was. John Byrne explained his all-ages approach to writing Superman, "As with everything -- or almost everything -- I write, I tried to make my Superman stories 'layered', so that readers who came back to them a few years, or even decades, after their first reading would find elements to the story that they had not noticed before. This is what I would define as an 'All-Ages' approach, rather than adult or 'grown-up'."

Except adults read them as well. That's why "Superman Family Adventures" and "Tiny Titans" were so popular. Little kids could enjoy it, but so could adults. These books are different from actual kid books like the Little Golden books.

They are appropriately rated PG-13 — Parents Strongly Cautioned. Some Material May Be Inappropriate For Children Under 13. Batman is not having sex with Catwoman in either Batman Returns or Dark Knight Rises.

In "Batman Returns", Bruce and Selina make out on his couch and later, she licks him on the lips while they're in costume. There was also double entendres made by the Penguin. In "The Dark Knight Rises", we see the aftermath of Bruce and Talia having sex.

The Joker's skin cut off from his face isn't nailed to a wall in Batman (1989) or The Dark Knight (2008).

The Joker throws a quill pen through Vinnie's neck in the 89 film and in TDK, he slices Gamboli's mouth with his knife. Not to mention the pencil trick.

Starfire is not wearing a thong and asking for sex, stating that it's not about love, and shown obviously naked in bed, obviously having had the sex in a movie or Teen Titans cartoon, Wonder Woman is not impaled through the chest and killed in a movie or the Wonder Woman TV show or the Wonder Woman animated movie or the Justice League cartoons.

Cartoons and television shows with DC characters are few and far between. But television in general, well, it happens there. "Smallville" had Clark and Lana have sex, later Clark and Lois and it was shown. Teenagers were still watching it.

See, what you fail to get is that it is okay to have those ratings and that content. Because there are multiple Batman books out there and parents, if they're just as responsible with films, television and video games, then they'll be just as responsible with comics.

[Mat001]

The vast majority of kids aren't reading comics today.

We don't know that for certain. We only have sales charts demographs from the direct market. There's still Bit Torrents and parents buying comics that they share with their kids.

The difference is people aren't killed from a computer virus and their computer crashing. If there is a fire, earthquake, hurricane, tornado, chances are you would die.

Way to go moving goal posts. Let me put it to you this way, you can replace what's lost due to a virus fairly easily. Comic book companies are making their back issues available for a fair price for download. You'd have an easier time replacing your collection through downloads, versus a disaster. I know that if my collection were destroyed in a fire or a tornado, I wouldn't even bother replacing it. Too much time and effort to do so and I don't see myself using Comixology.

The comic book companies choose to leave the newsstand market and sell all comics through the Direct Sales Market comic shops, which keep and sell back issues, so that all sales would produce the highest possible profits for the companies without any unsold comics being returned to the publishers. In mainstream stores the comics that go unsold go back to the publisher. And that's the price publishers have to pay for mass distribution of their product in mainstream stores.

That's why the companies made the return efforts a few years back. Didn't work.

If DC actually made their titles such as Detective Comics, etc. for all ages again they just might get those parents buying more comics for their kids.

Content isn't what's stopping them. Not now, not thirty years ago.

Generally the most successful movies and TV shows of comic book characters have been the ones that are generally faithful to the versions from the comics.

Not quite. Movies and television shows that have done well did so because they were either good or at least good enough for the audience, that they stayed around. "Green Lantern" was faithful to the source material, but still bombed. "Blade" deviated from the comics version by a whole lot and was very successful. As was the first sequel. When the third film came around, it failed because it was a poorly made film and not that it deviated. "X-Men" deviated quite a bit, but still made good money. Quality comes before faithfulness with the general audience. A faithful adaptation only matters to the fandom.

Comics were at their most successful consistently when they featured short stories.

Comics were successful before video games, the internet and other more interesting things came along. Not to mention the perception of being a nerd and a loser reading it.

You think comics wont sell in supermarkets and grocery stores regardless of content, and as you know, I disagree, and I say lets agree to disagree because it's obvious that no amount of back and forth arguing on our part is going to change the others point of view.

Content wasn't the problem. Lack of interest was. Twenty years ago, comics were a bit more tame, but only sold out whenever someone heard about the speculator market. "The Death Of Superman" was fairly violent for its time, but sold out only because of the speculation.

Other people will argue price is a problem, to which I say bollocks. Back when comics were $1.00 to $1.95 before tax, I wasn't always able to get a much in the way of comics because my family struggled with bills. Due in part to my stepfather's ill health. Other families that struggle for similar reasons, be it that or being on welfare, won't be buying comics if they're $2.99 or $1.99. Likewise, parents who can afford comics choose to either get them or not, for whatever variety of reasons.

[dupersuper]

Cartoons and television shows with DC characters are few and far between.

Seriously? Young Justice, Green Lantern DC Universe shorts, Beware the Batman, Amazon, Arrow, Smallville, Batman: Brave & Bold, The Batman, Krypto, Legion of Super Heroes, Birds of Prey, Human Target, JLU, Batman Beyond, Batman Beyond robot spin off, Gotham Girls, Static Shock, Teen Titans Go, Superman Adventures, Batman Adventures, Lois&Clark, Superboy, Flash, another Human Target, Ruby Spears Superman, Swamp Thing, Plastic Man, Shazam, live action Shazam, Isis, Super Friends, Wonder Woman, Filmation Superman/Superboy/Batman&Robin/Aquaman/JL/DCU shorts, 60s Batman, 50s Superman, Superman serials, Batman serials, Captain Marvel serials, Vigilante serials, Blackhawk serials, Fleischer Superman cartoons...seems like they've been consistently on TV for 7 or 8 decades now...

[Auguste Dupin]

We are limited to three pictures per post so I left out the other Red Hood and the Outlaws parts rated "T" for "teen" which DC says are "Appropriate for readers age 12 and up" that many do not regard as appropriate for 12 year olds. With the superhero Starfire (whom the general public know from the Teen Titans cartoons) objectified in a thong and asking for sex out of boredom, stating that it's not about love, and shown obviously naked in bed with her head submissively on the shoulder of the man, after obviously having had meaningless sex with someone she doesn't even love. This is certainly not sending positive messages to 12 year olds.






Wonder Woman is impaled through the chest and killed in the Earth 2 comic rated "T" for "teen" which DC says are "Appropriate for readers age 12 and up." Dr. Ellie Sattler wasn't impaled through the chest and killed in Jurassic Park. Marian Dubois wasn't impaled through the chest and killed in Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves.



I've never claimed that kids will turn into psychos from playing the Grand Theft Auto video games. The games are rated appropriately "M" for "Mature," so if kids are playing it behind their parents' back, then that's the parents fault, not an inappropriate rating on the video games. As I said, I have no problem with DC publishing some comics with some adult content, however, they should at least be labeled appropriately, like DC's Vertigo line is.

-How is that worse than any Bond movie? Ursulla Andress being sexualized when she first appears? James forcing himself on Pussy Galore? How many of these films have been seen by 12 years old without so much as a comment?
And let's stop acting as if 12 years old were brainwashed by comics. If a kid that age takes clues at how to deal with women from a comic, then his parents aren't doing their job.

-No, instead you the lawyer getting cut in two by a T rex, the sequel had one of the hunters getting devoured by dozen of small dinosaurs, sometimes in close shot and a guy getting grabed by two T rex from each sides and make a wish. Prince of Thieves starts with a guy getting his hand cut in close shot in a muslim prison with cries of pain in the background.
Is there something specific to impalement that I'm missing? Why would I be more choqued by the clea cut on WW's body than by when we realise all that's left of Samuel Jackson is his arm, or when I discover Robin's servant has been stabbed in the eyes?

-I still don't think it's too much for 12 years old kids, almost teenagers to handle. In fact, they're precisely at the age when this kind of things would appeal to them. Hot models in swimsuits? I would have been in love by the time I was 12. Wonder Woman getting stabbed by a bad guy? When me and my friends were 8, we were watching Piccolo dying to save Gohan by throwing himself in front of huge attack, and we were fine. Back home, Jurassic Park was rated "Parental accord advisable". All my friends were huge fans of the movie. Why? Because it scared the shit out of us.

[nightrider]

I'm sure when little children watches TV shows during prime time on broadcast network, they see things like sex and murder much more. Just in a less violent or sexual way. I'm sure shows like Smallville, New Girl, Greys Anatomy, Vampire Diaries and other TV shows, do air scenes like that.

[Mat001]

-I still don't think it's too much for 12 years old kids, almost teenagers to handle. In fact, they're precisely at the age when this kind of things would appeal to them. Hot models in swimsuits? I would have been in love by the time I was 12. Wonder Woman getting stabbed by a bad guy? When me and my friends were 8, we were watching Piccolo dying to save Gohan by throwing himself in front of huge attack, and we were fine. Back home, Jurassic Park was rated "Parental accord advisable". All my friends were huge fans of the movie. Why? Because it scared the shit out of us.

By twelve, I had been watching slasher horror films for almost four years and was already interested in girls. The thing is that most parents aren't going to be looking at comics content and definitely when it comes to twelve year olds, they're not going to go rushing to their parents over "Red Hood & The Outlaws" #1.

[The Bat-Man]

-How is that worse

The question that matters to me: is it any better than that old degrading stereotype of women as sluts just looking to get laid? No. And is it any worse than the version of Starfire in love with Dick Grayson and in a committed relationship with Dick Grayson, as conceived and created by Marv Wolfman and George Perez? Yes.

-No, instead you the lawyer getting cut in two by a T rex, the sequel had one of the hunters getting devoured by dozen of small dinosaurs, sometimes in close shot and a guy getting grabed by two T rex from each sides and make a wish. Prince of Thieves starts with a guy getting his hand cut in close shot in a muslim prison with cries of pain in the background.
Is there something specific to impalement that I'm missing? Why would I be more choqued by the clea cut on WW's body than by when we realise all that's left of Samuel Jackson is his arm, or when I discover Robin's servant has been stabbed in the eyes?

The Earth 2 Wonder Woman's impalement through the chest and death is not only gratuitous, but also strikes me as misogynistic, appealing to the baser instincts of the largely-male audience. Both the Earth 2 Superman and Batman at least get the dignity of dying in explosions without any gratuitous detail, yet Wonder Woman gets impaled straight through the chest by a male attacker in close up view, as Supergirl and Robin watch. This is followed by a panel where the sword has been withdrawn and you see the gaping chest wound in Wonder Woman's corpse. To sum up, in Earth 2 #1 comic rated "T" for "teen" which DC says is "Appropriate for readers age 12 "': Wonder Woman slices a jaw off on page 2, Batman sticks a bomb to a chest on page 3, Superman punches the head off of a body on page 4, Wonder Woman cuts a head off on page 4, Superman crushes a windpipe on page 5, Wonder Woman cuts off a head and hand with the same sword swing on page 5, Robin shoots and kills on page 7, Wonder Woman cuts off a leg on page 7, page 10 has a trifecta of Superman punching a head in half while Wonder Woman impales another and Batman shoots another in the head, page 12 has Wonder Woman decapitating another while Superman rips another in half and shoots his heat vision laser beams through anothers body at the same time, Wonder Woman impales another on page 13, Wonder Woman decapitates another on page 15 before being impaled herself, Superman is blown up on page 16 just before we see the gaping torso wound in Wonder Woman's corpse on the same page, Batman dies in an explosion on page 20. Also the Golden Age Flash Jay Garrick and his girlfriend discuss break-up sex on page 25, the Golden Age Flash Jay Garrick binge drinks on page 26. You seem to regard this as appropriate content for kids, I do not.

[The Bat-Man]

1. Most 12 year old boys have looked at Maxim magazine, the Victoria's Secret catalog, automotive magazines with bikini clad models, the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit issue and their older brother's adult magazines. Most 12 year old boys will use their computer or their friends to look up porn. Or failing that, those same scantly clad women online. They go to the swimming pool in the summer and see older teenage girls and young women in bikinis. If they have cable, they can watch Cinemax and Showtime late at night and get the softcore sex shows and films. I know that I did just about all of those things at that age.

2. Messages about women in general, well, sad to say, but unless the parents do their jobs, no one is at fault. And even then, most boys ignore it and will still objectify girls of the same age. Already in junior high, you've got kids either having oral sex or intercourse. In the former, it becomes a game. I'm not saying it is right, but even when parents do their job, it still falls to the kids to adhere to those moral guidelines. Saying that a book that's targeted at teenagers is wrong doesn't change that perception. Not when life itself doesn't follow along. Most teenagers already have that attitude towards intimacy.

I'm well aware that there is an abundance of material that isn't really appropriate for kids as young as 12 years old, lacking positive moral messages for impressionable kids. When I was growing up we had our moralistic comic books for all-ages, as well as The Shazam!/Isis Hour on TV, which helped teach us right from wrong and gave us positive heroes to look up to, which is something kids still need, especially in this day and age of single parent families, deadbeat dads, etc.

As Harlan Ellison said on the Legends of the Dark Knight: The History of Batman documentary, "My generation learned right from wrong, good from evil, the ethical and moral thing to do, from comic books."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAiJyvjb-1I

Jackson Bostwick/Captain Marvel said on Flashback, "Kids get away will a lot of stuff and when their 13 and parents decide they gotta reprimand 'em there's gonna be resentment because they never had it in their lives. Like a puppy when he just goes to the bathroom on the floor, he doesn't know any better, he needs to be trained, it's the same with a kid, and if you have the superheroes, whether it's comic book form, or cartoon form, or like we did a live-action form where they can be able to have the message slipped to 'em, without preaching to 'em, that's where you can really make a mark on kids lives. And that's what needs to be brought back. You get somebody who never had that, were never introduced to it as a child, they had to go out struggling and everything and all they know is the street violence and stuff like that, that's where they get into trouble."
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/flashba...on-flashback-w

Jackson Bostwick/Captain Marvel said, "To me, the most effective part of the show was not even in the initial episodes when they first started airing, but which eventually became the icing on the cake for the series. It was the end tags, when Captain Marvel flies back and talks to the audience about what they learned in that week’s episode. Right after they first aired, I told the Producer, Bob Chenault, that they missed the boat by not having the hero come back and wrap things up, ala The Lone Ranger, Cisco Kid, Sgt. Preston of the Yukon, etc. He told me that the network didn’t want to give up the 60 seconds of commercial time. Well, after the fan mail started arriving and indicated that they wanted to see more of Captain Marvel (not just in the last 15 minutes of the story), the gang at CBS in New York finally relented and we went back and filmed those tags for those first 15 episodes in one day out at Franklin Canyon Reservoir in Bel-Air. (It was important) not to preach to the kids and to give them a friend and someone to look up to, like I had with Clayton Moore as the Lone Ranger when I was growing up."
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/oral...-7-110103.html

Jackson Bostwick/Captain Marvel explained the impact the moral messages had on people in FilmFax magazine #112 (2006):


Brian Cutler/Rick Mason explained the impact the moral messages had on people on the Secrets of Isis DVD set by BCI, "Isis was the first Saturday morning heroine, and a lot of people watched TV on Saturday mornings, both youngsters and oldsters. It had a great appeal because it had a message and a moral in every single episode. Over the years, as surprisingly as it may seem, I've received dozens and dozens and dozens of emails from people all over the country, if not the world, commenting about the show and how it changed their lives. For example last year I received an email from a very very successful person in New York whose a stock broker who happens to be Chinese. He told me all of this in his email, and he was sending me the email because everybody that he grew up with in his neighborhood was either dead or in jail, and he attributed his success to watching The Shazam!/Isis Hour every Saturday morning and it gave him a path to follow. Now the impact of that on me, receiving an email like that, when your not aware of the impact you have at the time your doing something is phenomenal. And I just received an email the other day from someone saying, 'Oh, I loved your show, I loved you on Emergency, I loved your guest star work, but Isis was such an important part of my life.' And it's interesting and unique to see the impact that the show had on people, and still has on people. Wonderful email praising the show and the message and the moral and the lessons because, as I say and have said for years, there was a lesson and a message in every single episode of the show and those were all very good, necessary things and it gave people something to hang onto. If somebody were to ask me, whats the legacy of Isis? I would say, the depth, the moral issues. The strength that it gave people to go on with their lives. There are so many people over the years that have emailed me about how Isis changed their life. It's amazing how many different people have emailed me over the years that the messages that they received from Isis came at a time when they were down and out and it changed something in their life. And I get this from people of every walk of life, every ethnicity, every background, so hopefully, and I say this very seriously, because I don't know that people have a lot of heroes to look towards anymore, and maybe what this will do with the new DVD coming out, maybe this will give people maybe a little inspiration, maybe a new message said in an old way that they hadn't thought about before, but will allow them to look at life a little differently and with more enlightenment."

Joanna Pang Atkins/Cindy Lee said on the Secrets of Isis DVD set by BCI, "The series is uplifting and positive and it always has a great message and I think that's important. I work with a lot of children now and at the school I am at now they talk about character education all the time. Even at some of the high schools they are talking about character education. It's respect and citizenship and just having a good character and the Isis series instills that."

Denny O'Neil remembered the effect of Superman's words against racism had on him when he was a kid listening to the Adventures of Superman radio show in the 1940s. "The Superman radio show, I know, gave me my first peek into race situations because I remember, I was a avid listener of that show, if you can imagine little Denny O’Neil standing listening to mommy’s radio, every afternoon at 5:15," he said with a laugh. "And Superman once said that the difference in skin color was only due to a chemical. And that was the first time I ever heard anything like that. It is now 66 years later or so, and I still remember it."
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/2011...ary-11027.html

On the other hand, I do believe that routinely viewing snuff films and films glorifying sociopathic killers and torture horror films can negatively fuel a childs lack of morality, lack of ethics and lack of empathy to the suffering of others. However, I'm not saying that films or comic books or video games or gangsta rap music or satanic metal music or neo-nazi punk music turns anyone into sociopaths, but it can negatively influence impressionable kids lacking positive morality in their upbringing. Sociopathic people stem from damage to the orbital cortex and anterior cortex of the brain, the aggressive high risk MAOA "warrior" genetic from birth, along with a lack of nurturing parents and positive role-models during childhood, a traumatic rejection or abuse during youthhood, and often a history of antisocial isolation or emotional detachment in early life. Negative memories drives a psychotic mind as rage rises without positive influences. Neural scientist Jim Fallon discovered that he has the damage to the orbital cortex and anterior cortex of the brain, the aggressive high risk MAOA "warrior" genetic from birth, but due to his loving nurturing upbringing with positive influences, he didn't become a sociopathic killer.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cnV4RnWcmWo

[The Bat-Man]

3. Starfire was equally skimmpy back when she was first introduced

Not really, no. Starfire was not equally skimpy.

and having premarital sex with Dick, in the 80's.

Which is a reference to this scene from New Teen Titans #1 (1984) by Marv Wolfman and George Perez:

Starfire was in a long relationship with Dick Grayson by then and was in love with him. She wasn't having sex with random guys she dosen't love out of bordom. There is a difference.

[The Bat-Man]

George Perez explained in Comics Interview #50 (1987):

"Highlander: The Final Dimension" had five decapitations and two scenes where Connor MacLeod was stabbed in the gut with a sword. It was rated PG-13. "Indiana Jones & The Temple Of Doom" was PG rated and had a guy's heart ripped out, before he was set on fire. "Spider-Man" and "Spider-Man 3" had the Osborne's impaled. Both were PG-13. "The Dark Knight" had Harvey Dent's face caught on fire and his very gory face shown on screen afterwards. In "The Dark Knight Rises", Talia shanks Batman just like Lex Luthor did in "Superman Returns". Also PG-13. "X-Men" has Wolverine impaling Rogue and we see his claws go through her and out her back. Not the only time he kills people with his claws in the films.

The uproar over the PG rated Indiana Jones & The Temple Of Doom having a guy's heart ripped out, before he was set on fire, lead to the creation of the PG-13 movie rating — Parents Strongly Cautioned. Some Material May Be Inappropriate For Children Under 13, which is a more responsible rating than the DC rating T for Teen as "Appropriate for readers age 12." 12 isn't even teen yet, that is preteen. Heck, even the video game rating T for Teen is more responsible - Content is generally suitable for ages 13 and up.

And BTW, kids are also playing violent video games that are rated T for Teen or M for Mature. "Mortal Kombat" alone has sales that teenagers at that age play. Games with impalement, decapitations and more.

Video games are rated M for Mature for a reason. As the video game Entertainment Software Rating Board says: Content is generally suitable for ages 17 and up. May contain intense violence, blood and gore, sexual content and/or strong language.

Not all play behind their backs.

And that is irresponsible parenting.

Besides, kids that age read Vertigo titles back when it first launched. I was 12 when I first read "The Dark Knight Returns".

Many kids increasingly see entertainment that was intended only for older audiences. As long as publishers differentiate between all-ages material and material intended only for older audiences than at least they are try to be responsible, and the rest of the responsibility lays on the stores and the kids parents.

Which in no way affected sales, nor his popularity. Hell, most people assumed Superman was in his 30's, back in the Bronze Age. Aided by the fact that the actors portraying Superman was in their 30's and 40's. And readers don't give two shits if he's 25 or 35.

I disagree. And the facts are that the Bronze Age live-action Superman Christopher Reeve was 25 years old in Superman: The Movie. In the Bronze Age comics DC stated that Superman was perpetually 29. Keeping him from turning into a middle aged married man kept him from turning into the young readers parents in their eyes.

Entertaining to you, not to everyone.

Entertaining to others as well, not only to me. You act as though I said everyone, I didn't once say everyone. As I said before, I'm not the only one that preferred the iconic triangle, and I'm not going to pretend like you are the only one that preferred the marriage. Some considered the progression of the secret identity reveal, engagement and marriage on the Lois & Clark show and in the comics to be good progression and while others considered it a bad idea. Case in point, on the documentary Look Up in the Sky!: The Amazing Story of Superman (2006), Paul Levitz said, "We still have a good debate going on about that at the office. There's a lot of people on the creative staff who would like to find a way to have him wake up one morning and that just be a dream." We've been over all this already.