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  1. #136
    Ghost of Perdition Nocturnus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bat-Man View Post
    It does make sense from an entertainment and business stand point to get back to the formula that made Superman such a hit in the first place. Star writer Grant Morrison and his fans, along with curious spectators of the New 52 and collectors of the new first issues, have given the Superman books a temporary boost in sales, but when Grant Morrison leaves, I predict many of his fans will leave with him. Star artist Jim Lee and his fans will give Superman comics another temporary boost in sales, until he leaves, and his fans leave with him. When I referenced the iconic Lois and Superman relationship being analyzed for years by students of the medium, I was referring to Jules Feiffer in his book The Great Comic Book Heroes (1965).
    Les Daniels in his book Comix A History of Comic Books in America (1971).

    James Steranko in his book The Steranko History of Comics (1970). Michael Uslan's The Comic Book in Society course at Indiana University, Michael L. Fleisher in The Great Superman Book: The Complete Encyclopedia of the Folk Hero of America (1978). Etc, etc.
    None of it really changes my opinion on the matter. The very dates in your references proves that Superman has come a long way. I would quote another post from CBR here where someone said something like: With due respect, Siegel&Shuster only created the anatomy of the hero and over the years many many writers have crafted and molded Superman, pieces by pieces, into the hero that he is today. Granted everything wasn't all that great, but every creator at some point have contributed to the Superhero, to the point that everyone has their own definition of what Superman should be. That speaks for the character itself, how it has come a long way. If you look my previous post I said that the whole triangle dynamic is done enough already and is extremely tiring. Especially when DC promised "new" things. I wouldn't be bothered if things were pre-flashpoint still.

    As for Morrison leaving Action, I'm aware that many will discontinue after he does. But that could be said for any Star writer. But to say that Superman comics will only be driven by big names such as Morrison, and is destined to fail otherwise is wishful thinking on your part. It sounds almost exactly like those that complained and said how the New 52 will revert back to pre-Flashpoint in 6 months or a year.

  2. #137
    Creator Bill Finger The Bat-Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocturnus View Post
    I would quote another post from CBR here where someone said something like: With due respect, Siegel&Shuster only created the anatomy of the hero and over the years many many writers have crafted and molded Superman, pieces by pieces, into the hero that he is today.
    Many of the primary elements of the iconic Superman mythos were created by Jerry Siegel. Jerry Siegel wrote Superman from 1938 to 1946. In the Silver Age Jerry Siegel wrote Superman again from 1959 to 1965. The most iconic elements of Superman is that he's a Kryptonian from the planet Krypton who was rocked to earth when Krypton exploded, was raised by the Kent's who named him Clark, and taught him to uses his powers for the good of mankind, he possesses superhuman strength and endurance and super-speed, flight, and has super-hearing and x-ray and microscopic vision powers and super-breath. He's cheerful, secure, upbeat, he has a sly sense of humor. He displays American patriotism, he tries to set a positive example for others. As Clark Kent he wears glasses and acts mild mannered and works as a reporter for the Daily Planet with a competitive aggressive reporter named Lois Lane (his love interest, as Superman is her love interest), and works with Jimmy Olsen. Their boss is Perry White. As Clark Kent he wears glasses and a suit and tie and acts mild-mannered. As Superman he wears a blue cloth tights with red trunks, red cape, red boots and an "S" on his chest and is heroic. He fights Luthor, Mr. Mxyztplk, the Prankster and other criminals. His primary weakness are the meteors from the planet Krypton.
    Superman/Clark Kent first appeared in Action Comics #1 (1938) "Superman, Champion of the Oppressed" by Jerry Siegel.
    Superman first flew, rather than just leaping, in Superman #10 (1941) "The Talent Agency Fraud" by Jerry Siegel.
    Superman first used super-strength in Action Comics #1 (1938) "Superman, Champion of the Oppressed" by Jerry Siegel.
    Bullets first bounced off Superman's chest in Action Comics #1 (1938) "Superman, Champion of the Oppressed" by Jerry Siegel.
    Superman first smashes through a brick wall in Action Comics #12 (1939) "Traffic Safety" by Jerry Siegel.
    Superman first bends a gun out of shape in Superman #1 (1939) "Prelude to Superman, Champion of the Oppressed" by Jerry Siegel.
    Superman first used super-speed in Action Comics #1 (1938) "Superman, Champion of the Oppressed" by Jerry Siegel.
    Superman first used super-hearing in Superman #2 (1939) "Superman and the Skyscrapers" by Jerry Siegel.
    Superman first used x-ray and microscopic vision in Superman #11 (1939) "The Corinthville Caper" by Jerry Siegel.
    Superman first burrows through the ground in Superman #11 (1941) "Zimba's Gold Badge Terrorists" by Jerry Siegel.
    It's first stated that Superman can hold his breath of hours in Action Comics #15 (1939) by Jerry Siegel.
    Superman first used super-breath in Action Comics #20 (1940) "Superman in Hollywood" by Jerry Siegel.
    Lois Lane first appeared in Action Comics #1 (1938) "Superman, Champion of the Oppressed" by Jerry Siegel.
    Jimmy Olsen's full name first appeared in the comics in Superman #15 (1942) "The Cop Who Was Ruined" by Jerry Siegel.
    Perry White's full name first appeared in the comics in Superman #10 (1941) "The Invisible Luthor" by Jerry Siegel.
    The Daily Planet name first appeared in the comics in Superman #4 (1940) "Superman versus Luthor" by Jerry Siegel.
    Superman's city was first called Metropolis in Action Comics #16 (1939) "The Gambling Expose" by Jerry Siegel.
    Luthor first appeared bald in Superman #10 (1941) "The Invisible Luthor" in the Golden Age by Jerry Siegel. Even the origin for the Silver Age version of Luthor was created by Jerry Siegel in Adventure Comics #271 (1960) "How Luthor Met Superboy."
    Krypton first appeared in Action Comics #1 (1938) "Superman, Champion of the Oppressed" by Jerry Siegel.
    Jor-L and Lara first appeared in "The Terrible Truth!" (1939) in the Superman newspaper comics strip by Jerry Siegel.
    The Kents first appeared in Superman #1 (1939) "Origin of Superman" by Jerry Siegel.
    Superboy first appeared in More Fun Comics #101 (1945) by Jerry Siegel.
    Mr. Mxyztplk first appeared in Superman #30 (1944) "The Mysterious Mr. Mxyztplk" by Jerry Siegel.
    The Prankster first appeared in Action Comics #51 (1942) "The Case of the Crimeless Crimes" by Jerry Siegel.
    The meteors from Krypton that weaken Superman first appeared in "The K-Metal from Krypton" (1940) by Jerry Siegel.
    Superman's secret fortress citadel retreat of solitude first appeared in Superman #17 (1942) "Muscles For Sale" by Jerry Siegel.
    Last edited by The Bat-Man; 10-31-2012 at 01:31 AM.
    Jerry Siegel/Joe Shuster, Bill Finger/Bob Kane, William Moulton Marston. Creators of the most enduring iconic archetypes of the comic book superhero genre and its powerful legacy.

  3. #138
    Creator Bill Finger The Bat-Man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nocturnus View Post
    Especially when DC promised "new" things.
    As I pointed out in a previous post, Lois Lane getting involved with others isn't really a new thing, that's an old "shocker" gimmick in attempts to boost sales that goes back to Lois Lane #79 (1967), written by Robert Kanigher, where Lois becomes engaged to Titanman. Lois Lane #90 (1969) where Lois dates Rick Darnell. Lois Lane #103 (1970), written by Robert Kanigher, where Lois agrees to marry Satdev. Lois Lane #105 (1970), written by Robert Kanigher, where Lois agrees to marry Johnny Adonis. Lois Lane #132 (1973), written by Cary Bates, where Lois dates Philip Karnes. A romance between Superman and Wonder Woman isn't really a new thing, either, that goes back to Wonder Woman #130 (1962), written by Robert Kanigher and many other comics over the decades. Clark, Jimmy and Lois working for Morgan Edge isn't really a new thing either, that goes back to Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen #133 (1970), written by Jack Kirby, and many other Superman comics throughout the Bronze Age. Rather than returning to all of that, I'd prefer they finally get back closer to what Siegel and Shuster created and intended. It does make sense from an entertainment and business stand point to get back to the formula that made Superman such a hit in the first place. The comics primarily haven't followed that formula in a long time. Since the '90s Superman comics have been largely driven on a regular bases by gimmicks, events, stunts in the mainstream continuity comics that are more appropriate for Elseworlds alternate universes in DC's Multiverse. "The Day of The Krypton Man" arc (1990) in which Superman turns into Krypton Man. "Secrets in the Night" (Action Comics #662 (1990)) in which Clark reveals his secret identity to Lois. "Krisis of the Krimson Kryptonite The Human Factor" (Superman #50 (1991)) in which Clark proposes marriage to Lois and they are engaged. The "death" of Lex Luthor (1991). The "new" Lex Luthor II arc (1991-1992). "The Death of Superman" arc (1992). As Mike Carlin admitted in Wizard magazine #194 (2007), "I don't think the 'Death of Superman' storyline is even a story. It is just a fistfight." And the "Reign of the Supermen" arc about the "darker and grittier" Superman replacements and Superman returning in a black suit. As Roger Stern said in Wizard magazine #194 (2007):

    Then they had Pa Kent have a heart attack (Superman: The Man of Steel #21 (1993)). And then when Superman returned they also gave him that out of character mullet look in an attempt to make him look "cool" (1993-1996).

    And then they had him get married ("The Wedding Album" (1996)) which eliminated a vital element, romantic/sexual tension, from the Superman myth, and lead to the cancellation of the previously successful Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman TV show in 1997 after they coincided the wedding on the show in 1996. And then they gave Superman that electric suit (1997-1998). Had Superman split into two beings: a Superman Red and a Superman Blue (1998). Then they had Clark fired from the Daily Planet by Lex Luthor and had the Daily Planet replaced with Lex.Com (1998). Then they made Lex Luthor the president of the United States (2000-2004). Then they made the Modern Age Krypton a lie ("Return to Krypton" arc (2001)). Then they rewrote Superman's origin again with Birthright (2003). Then they had Superman living on Kandor, thinking it's Krypton, having no superpowers, wearing shinny armor, with a wife ("Godfall" arc (2004)). Then they had Lex Luthor inject himself with a super-steroid and go insane (2004). Then they had Superman get the exact same Fortress of Solitude as in the Donner/Lester films ("Up Up and Away" arc (2006)). Then they had Lois and Clark get an adopted son, Chris Kent ("Last Son" arc (2006)). Then they had Pa Kent have another heart attack and die (2008). Then they had 100,000 Kryptonians living on Earth ("New Krypton" arc (2008-2009)). Then they removed Superman from his own comics for a year and replaced Superman with Mon-El ("World Without Superman" and "World Against Superman" arcs (2009-2010)). Then they rewrote Superman's origin again with Secret Origin (2009). Then they had Superman renounce his American citizenship ("The Incident" (2011)). Then they had Superman walk across America for a whole year and pulled the author off his own arc and replaced him with another author who tried to finish the other authors year long arc ("Grounded" arc (2010-2011)) and they still didn't have Superman in Action Comics ("The Black Ring" arc (2010-2011)). In 2011 they rewrote Superman's origin again and remade his entire history, costume, personality, etc. with the New 52 reboot. Now they have Clark quit the Daily Planet. One "shocker" event after the next, because, as Louise Simonson and Jon Bogdanove said in Wizard magazine #194 (2007):
    Last edited by The Bat-Man; 10-31-2012 at 04:21 PM.
    Jerry Siegel/Joe Shuster, Bill Finger/Bob Kane, William Moulton Marston. Creators of the most enduring iconic archetypes of the comic book superhero genre and its powerful legacy.

  4. #139
    Elder Member dupersuper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bat-Man View Post
    Yeah, that showed. I love the triangle era, but the last couple years they were clearly treading water and burning out.
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  5. #140
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bat-Man
    And then they had him get married ("The Wedding Album" (1996)) which eliminated a vital element, romantic/sexual tension, from the Superman myth, and lead to the cancellation of the previously successful Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman TV show in 1997 after they coincided the wedding on the show in 1996.
    The show was already on the verge of cancellation because it got campier and campier and then they pulled a boneheaded move by having them get married in season three, only to reveal it was clone of Lois. In the comics, at least, it was called progression. Something that they had been known for. But tension still existed between Lois and Clark, just a different kind.

  6. #141
    Creator Bill Finger The Bat-Man's Avatar
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    Definitely the other stunts on the show leading up to the real marriage were jumping the shark moments that contributed to the eventual cancellation of the show. The fake marriage featuring the Lois clone happened before the eventual real marriage to the real Lois in the episode "Swear to God, This Time We're Not Kidding" (October 6th, 1996) that coincided with the publication of The Wedding Album comic. Some considered the progression of the secret identity reveal, engagement and marriage on the show and in the comics to be good character progression and while others considered it a bad idea. The chase, secrets, almost getting caught and found out and the under lying sexual tension between Lois and Superman/Clark was all dissolved by the progression. On the documentary Look Up in the Sky!: The Amazing Story of Superman (2006), Paul Levitz said, "We still have a good debate going on about that at the office. There's a lot of people on the creative staff who would like to find a way to have him wake up one morning and that just be a dream."
    Last edited by The Bat-Man; 11-01-2012 at 03:48 PM.
    Jerry Siegel/Joe Shuster, Bill Finger/Bob Kane, William Moulton Marston. Creators of the most enduring iconic archetypes of the comic book superhero genre and its powerful legacy.

  7. #142

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    Quote Originally Posted by flottanna View Post
    I don't know what they are doing. But it just doesn't feel right. And it was some damn good nostalgia. They both really know how to do superman. Gary Frank draws Sups like no other artist.
    That's all well and good. I like nostalgia too, but only to a point. Everyone at DC and many fans like myself understand that nostalgia is in the past for a reason. Because it's the past. The challenge DC faces is how to move the character forward. And by and large, I think they've done an admirable job. Superman still feels like Superman. He hasn't been radically altered. He's still the same hero that he's always been.

    Granted, the themes have been different. Superman is a lot more alien in the New 52. Up until he hooked up with Wonder Woman, he was completely isolated. His parents are dead. He has to hide his true self from his best friends. He really doesn't have anyone to relate to, but he still has to be this ideal that is Superman. Why is that suffering? Why is that bad? It's one thing not to like it, but are the books really suffering that much? I think not.
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  8. #143
    Elder Member Mat001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bat-Man View Post
    Definitely the other stunts on the show leading up to the real marriage were jumping the shark moments that contributed to the eventual cancellation of the show. The fake marriage featuring the Lois clone happened before the eventual real marriage to the real Lois in the episode "Swear to God, This Time We're Not Kidding" (October 6th, 1996) that coincided with the publication of The Wedding Album comic. Some considered the progression of the secret identity reveal, engagement and marriage on the show and in the comics to be good character progression and while others considered it a bad idea. The chase, secrets, almost getting caught and found out and the under lying sexual tension between Lois and Superman/Clark was all dissolved by the progression. On the documentary Look Up in the Sky!: The Amazing Story of Superman (2006), Paul Levitz said, "We still have a good debate going on about that at the office. There's a lot of people on the creative staff who would like to find a way to have him wake up one morning and that just be a dream."
    Which regardless doesn't change the fact that the change made the characters interesting. It makes the two characters grown up and puts them in new situations. If other DC characters could go through dramatic changes, then Superman should do.

  9. #144
    Creator Bill Finger The Bat-Man's Avatar
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    I found the Superman/Clark and Lois characters blander with them married and her knowing all of his secrets. I found the Superman/Clark and Lois characters interesting and entertaining with the unrequited love of the ever-present chase, the under lying sexual tension, the secrets that go with her not knowing his secret identity, almost getting caught and found out.
    Jerry Siegel/Joe Shuster, Bill Finger/Bob Kane, William Moulton Marston. Creators of the most enduring iconic archetypes of the comic book superhero genre and its powerful legacy.

  10. #145
    Senior Member jgiannantoni05's Avatar
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    Superman is suffering. I'm pretty sure I'm done with modern Superman. Just 1938 to 80's Superman for me now.

    The biggest saddest missed opportunity was not letting Grant Morrison make a 4-6 year long super-narrative out of pre-Flashpoint Superman..where Grant would have smoothed it all out, somehow, someway, from 1938 to Byrne to Johns.

    All-Star Superman is the last great Superman story. Fitting, considering what it was about.
    DC discarded their history, and now has none. DC will always be in the shadows of their past work.

  11. #146
    S.P.E.C.T.R.E. destro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Bat-Man View Post
    I found the Superman/Clark and Lois characters blander with them married and her knowing all of his secrets. I found the Superman/Clark and Lois characters interesting and entertaining with the unrequited love of the ever-present chase, the under lying sexual tension, the secrets that go with her not knowing his secret identity, almost getting caught and found out.
    Yup, pretty much my feelings exactly.
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  12. #147
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    My feeling on this subject is past tense. Superman was suffering. Before the reboot. Not everything since the reboot has gone perfect mind you, but the state the character in now is light years better than it was before the reboot.

  13. #148
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    I think the love triangle is overrated. The Lois liking Superman and overlooking Clark is pretty old and uninteresting to me.
    If they're not going to be married then I rather have Superman dating other people.

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by jgiannantoni05 View Post
    Superman is suffering. I'm pretty sure I'm done with modern Superman. Just 1938 to 80's Superman for me now.

    The biggest saddest missed opportunity was not letting Grant Morrison make a 4-6 year long super-narrative out of pre-Flashpoint Superman..where Grant would have smoothed it all out, somehow, someway, from 1938 to Byrne to Johns.
    By Morrison's admission what worked for Batman wouldn't have worked with Superman (assuming you mean the "everything counts" continuity), due to the drastic revamps and reboots the character keeps getting. Morrison was never really interested in doing a long Superman run after All Star Superman was his definitive statement, and Action Comics is basically just his leftover ideas.

    Unfortunately yeah Superman has not really had the right footing since the 80s reboot. But unlike you, I'm more optimistic about the New 52 one. All the current creators cite Morrison and All Star as their biggest influence. It's now his Dark Knight Returns.

  15. #150

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    Quote Originally Posted by jgiannantoni05 View Post
    Superman is suffering. I'm pretty sure I'm done with modern Superman. Just 1938 to 80's Superman for me now.

    The biggest saddest missed opportunity was not letting Grant Morrison make a 4-6 year long super-narrative out of pre-Flashpoint Superman..where Grant would have smoothed it all out, somehow, someway, from 1938 to Byrne to Johns.

    All-Star Superman is the last great Superman story. Fitting, considering what it was about.
    Yep. This pretty much sums up how I feel.

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