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  1. #286
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    this issue should instead be perceived as a starting point for an arc that demonstrates growth.

    I think a lot of us were already looking at this starting point like that.......I even think a few of the guys and gals on here pointed that out. Can't remember who said it but someone even said that this could be a growth point for a lot of characters, not just Clark.

  2. #287
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Plus I don't think its fair to label him a coward when we've never even got into the reasons why he's never pursued anything. I mean, maybe he didn't ever feel it was proper, being her colleague. Maybe he didn't think romance and the workplace mixed. Hell I think past writers like Perez said something very similar to that being the reason in an interview. Granted it hasn't been put to print yet so it doesn't count, but if something like that is indeed pointed out to be the reason, I don't chalk that up to cowardice. In any case we don't know details yet so I don't think its fair to make a judgment either way. And he's certainly not being unfair to Diana when to date they've shared one impromptu kiss. They haven't even been on a date yet. He hasn't been unfair to her because he hasn't even been in a position to be unfair to her, nor her to him.
    Clark Kent has been Lois Lane's colleague for nearly 75 years and that fact has never stopped him from enthusiastically courting her. If Clark doesn't believe romance should be mixed with his civilian work, then I'm going to have hard time buying that he would deem it okay to mix romance with his hero work. The rationales given by Perez and others about Lois's position serving as a barrier to romance does not explain why Clark didn't make any sort of move or confess any sort of feelings to Lois during the five years prior to her promotion to EP at Edge's PGN or the year he's spent post-promotion pining for her.

    Clark is being unfair to Diana because he knows he still has feelings for Lois. He admitted prior to kissing Diana that he felt lonely and alienated, so his romantic overtures were indeed motivated by what wasn't happening with Lois. They kissed because they were lonely. That's understandable, but it's also not healthy or fair to either Clark or Diana to start a relationship with emotional escapism as its foundation.

    The fact that there is so much we don't know about Clark's rationale for not pursuing anything with Lois for five years is a glaring writing flaw. Maybe Lobdell will fill in the gaps? In any case, guesses aren't explanations that erase any concerns the canon has generated as of this moment. Holding off criticism of what is going on now based on the off chance explanations might be provided at some point seems dismissive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Yeah or maybe he was just afraid for he safety (most versions of Superman use this reasoning). Lois was already putting herself in a lot of danger with her job.....why would Clark add to that with his crazy life? I just don't see the problem that others have with this given what I and other have said.
    At no point has Clark ever expressed such a concern. In fact, in Superman #1 he actually said he was happy Lois's new job kept her out of danger. More importantly, such a rationale is the very definition of cowardice. You are literally saying Clark didn't pursue anything with Lois because he was allowing fear to decide love.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    Sorry, but he's Superman, part of the original reasoning of his being a reporter is finding out about breaking news. If there was a strong indication Clark was simply spying to find out some personal details, I'd agree with your logic. In this case it's no worse to me than Clark listening to two patrons in a diner with super-hearing after he notes something suspicious. Or any of the number of times in past continuities he managed to be in the right place to save Lois life because he tracked her heartbeat or checked her whereabouts using X-ray vision when he suspected she was in danger.
    Superman has his own ways to find out about breaking news. For example, asking Lois if her text message was important news. See? Easy as pie to get the info he needs without abusing his powers. Lois is a friend, not a stranger who is acting suspiciously. If Clark is curious about something, then he should damn well ask first before resorting to unnecessary spying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    I think a lot of us were already looking at this starting point like that.......I even think a few of the guys and gals on here pointed that out. Can't remember who said it but someone even said that this could be a growth point for a lot of characters, not just Clark.
    It can only be a recognized moment for growth if it is acknowledged that Clark is behaving immaturely in the first place. One can't say Clark will probably grow, yet at the same time argue that his behavior is perfectly acceptable.
    Last edited by misslane38; 11-04-2012 at 11:42 PM.

  3. #288
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    This is a different Clark Kent and a different Lois Lane. A Clark Kent and Lois Lane who have been colleagues for five years, not 75. We can't use pre-Flashpoint history as any sort of indicator on how this Clark would treat his feelings here. They didn't reboot their universe only to then adhere to past history in regards to everything. That Clark Kent before the reboot courted Lois Lane vigorously is irrelevant. This one didn't for some reason. And my only point is its not fair to label him a coward before finding out why.

    And there's nothing in JL #12 to suggest, even in the slightest, that Superman's kissing Diana had anything to do with Lois, period. Johns wrote that scene as two friends who shared a sudden and unexpected spark. You're making it about Lois, but no one else is.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 11-05-2012 at 12:06 AM.

  4. #289
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Except there's nothing to suggest that's what he was doing. Absolutely nothing suggests he kissed Diana explicitly due to anything regarding Lois. Rather everything suggests it was a spur of the moment spark between the two.
    The spark was explicitly tied to their mutual loneliness due to their inability to connect with the people they truly care about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    This is a different Clark Kent and a different Lois Lane. A Clark Kent and Lois Lane who have been colleagues for five years, not 75. We can't use pre-Flashpoint history as any sort of indicator on how this Clark would treat his feelings feelings here. They didn't reboot their universe only to then adhere to past history in regards to everything. That Clark Kent before the reboot courted Lois Lane vigorously is irrelevant. This one didn't for some reason. And my only point is its not fair to label him a coward before finding out why.
    Missing the point. The 75 year history of the character shows us that most incarnations have zero qualms about dating colleagues, so it is beyond curious why this New 52 Clark Kent is so cowardly. Clark is a coward regardless of the reason for not sharing his feelings with Lois. Whether its fear for her safety or concerns about their working relationship that has prevented Clark from opening up to her, it doesn't matter. Those explanations are just fears, which speaks to a lack of courage on Clark's part to take emotional risks. Clark's thought in this issue that if anything serious was going to happen between he and Lois, it would have already happened, suggests to me that Clark isn't holding back out of fear. It suggests he's simply waiting around on the sidelines for Lois to make the first move. In other words, his lack of forward motion with Lois is due to his own passivity rather than any concrete concerns for her safety or their professional relationship. Justice League #12 indicates that passivity is primarily motivated by the need to maintain his secret identity -- to keep those he cares about safe. As Clark's only canonical explanation it serves to indicate that Clark is indeed putting fear before love. A coward's choice, if you ask me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Mutual lonlieness due to an inability to connect with people at large in general. "People they truly care about" suggest they don't care about one another and that's a falsehood. They're friends. Not as close yet as they were pre-reboot but they care about one another all the same.
    I did not suggest Clark and Diana didn't care about each other. And, no, Clark wasn't speaking to Diana about "people at large in general." They are clearly talking about close personal relationships using Steve as an example. Clark responds by sharing his own experiences with "relationships" with people he's "close to" in his civilian life. I can't think of any relationship other than Clark's relationship with Lois that fits that both fits that description and corresponds with the context of the conversation. The context, of course, is summed up in Diana's opening lines about how in an ideal world one should be able to be with the person you like. We know Diana likes Steve, and Clark likes Lois. It's not that complicated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    At the moment he is observing the texting, he's also in the middle of a discussion with both Lois and Perry about a different topic. There really isn't an "easy as pie" way to suddenly go- "Are you getting texted with breaking news, Lois?" in that situation. It comes off as Clark trying to snidely start an argument about Lois' texting ettiquette "Is that text really more important that the conversation we are having". At the very least it will start a conversation that will make it harder for Clark to excuse himself if Superman is needed. At worse it will escalate any bad feelings Lois has after the criticism of her news coverage.
    So it's better to spy on people than to risk the possibility of mildly offending someone? I don't agree with that.

    Plus Clark can get the crucial info faster reading it than trying to work questions to Lois into the conversation. If time is of the essence then faster is better. And Clark can't be sure if time is of the essence til he knows the facts.
    Since when does Lois get super secret texts about breaking news that Clark could not pick up first with his super-hearing or other abilities?
    Last edited by misslane38; 11-05-2012 at 12:24 AM.

  5. #290
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Mutual lonlieness due to an inability to connect with people at large in general. Steve and Lois are just two examples of a larger issue. And for the life of me I can't see what's wrong with that. People bond over all sorts of different things, if they bond over this how is that bad? But I digress, its not just "people they truly care about" either, as that suggests they don't care about one another and that's a falsehood. They're friends. Not as close yet as they were pre-reboot but they care about one another all the same.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 11-05-2012 at 12:15 AM.

  6. #291

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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Superman has his own ways to find out about breaking news. For example, asking Lois if her text message was important news. See? Easy as pie to get the info he needs without abusing his powers. Lois is a friend, not a stranger who is acting suspiciously. If Clark is curious about something, then he should damn well ask first before resorting to unnecessary spying.
    At the moment he is observing the texting, he's also in the middle of a discussion with both Lois and Perry about a different topic. There really isn't an "easy as pie" way to suddenly go- "Are you getting texted with breaking news, Lois?" in that situation. It comes off as Clark trying to snidely start an argument about Lois' texting ettiquette "Is that text really more important that the conversation we are having". At the very least it will start a conversation that will make it harder for Clark to excuse himself if Superman is needed. At worse it will escalate any bad feelings Lois has after the criticism of her news coverage.

    Plus Clark can get the crucial info faster reading it than trying to work questions to Lois into the conversation. If time is of the essence then faster is better. And Clark can't be sure if time is of the essence til he knows the facts.

    Like i originally said if the next few times we see Lois we have Clark observing her and Jonathan in their new home or we have Clark evesdropping on her conversations with Jimmy or anything else stalkerish... then I'll revise my opinion. But just based off the one scene here I'm giving Clark the benefit of the doubt as to whether it was Superman scanning for a potential emergency or Clark snooping through Lois' private messages.

  7. #292
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    At no point has Clark ever expressed such a concern. In fact, in Superman #1 he actually said he was happy Lois's new job kept her out of danger. More importantly, such a rationale is the very definition of cowardice. You are literally saying Clark didn't pursue anything with Lois because he was allowing fear to decide love.
    Sure he did. The whole thing in JL #12 showed that he felt he couldn't get close to anyone (I can only imagine that his hero work was part of the reason) then in Action comics where he gives up his Clark Kent ID because he felt "compromised" (his friends and people around him are a factor in his Clark Kent life). Then after that death of Clark Kent he spent his time on earth as an anti-social firefighter named Johnny Clark. He made no ties and he spent most of his time as Superman. Yeah there were other factor that played in with all of this but the safety of his friends and the people around was a big factor. Yeah in Superman #1 5 years after she spent her time in the "trenches" and in danger all the time......she almost died at one point. All that time why would he go after her and put her in more danger? But by the time he thought she would be safe enough he was too late because she now had a BF by that time.

    You call him a coward while he's trying to keep her safe by keeping her at arms length. Yeah I'm saying that he picked Lois well being over his happiness....such a coward..


    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    It can only be a recognized moment for growth if it is acknowledged that Clark is behaving immaturely in the first place. One can't say Clark will probably grow, yet at the same time argue that his behavior is perfectly acceptable.

    I don't think to many (at least I'm not) people are saying that Clark is in the right.....I'm just saying that it's a normal imperfect human thing to do...this will go into character growth. So I don't really see your problem other than it's not you preferred way for Superman to act....which is cool but it's not a crime.
    Last edited by Superlad93; 11-05-2012 at 12:15 AM.

  8. #293
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    You call him a coward while he's trying to keep her safe by keeping her at arms length. Yeah I'm saying that he picked Lois well being over his happiness....such a coward.
    Clark doesn't know what the future will bring. He is allowing his fears about what might happen stop him from following his bliss. This is the opposite of what mythologist, Joseph Campbell, argues is the behavior of a true and mature hero. Moreover, if Clark's fears were the one and only thing holding him back, then how do you explain his statement to himself that if something was going to happen between them, then it would have already happened? Wouldn't it have made more sense for him to say to himself that it would never have happened because he could never put her danger? Instead, it sounds like Clark wasn't worried about Lois's safety as much as he was waiting around for her to show some interest in him beyond friendship. Why would he be endlessly waiting for something to happen if he would only have to push her away for her own good in the end? Doesn't make any sense.

    I don't think to many (at least I'm not) people are saying that Clark is in the right.....I'm just saying that it's a normal imperfect human thing to do...this will go into character growth. So I don't really see your problem other than it's not you preferred way for Superman to act....which is cool but it's not a crime.
    I have seen many people defend Clark's immaturity by calling it healthy or normal or justified or any other synonym you can find for "it's okay with me." I can look at imperfect behavior and appreciate it as a narrative choice, if growth is the ultimate goal. What I cannot understand anyone who would ignore those flaws or make excuses for them. Either Lobdell intends for his readers to view Clark's behavior as lacking any flaw or he intends for his readers to question it. I'm hoping it's the latter not the former because I find Clark's behavior questionable at the moment. There's things I admire about this New 52 Clark Kent, but he still has a lot to learn both as a man and as a hero.

  9. #294

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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    So it's better to spy on people than to risk the possibility of mildly offending someone? I don't agree with that.
    It's better to avoid an argument in this case. Without 20/20 hindsight about why Lois is really texting- Clark assumes this might be a job for Superman. That means he is trying to not only see what Lois knows about the text, but also trying to find a quick exit strategy to go deal with this possible threat. Offending Lois- mildly or not- doesn't seem likely to make it easier to slip away to the nearest empty storage room.


    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Since when does Lois get super secret texts about breaking news that Clark could not pick up first with his super-hearing or other abilities?
    When Lois is getting information sent from staff about a breaking story not occuring in Metropolis. To piggyback on your earlier example about a text from the President- Ms Lane, we have unconfirmed reports of warplanes bombing Iran. Should we break into Andrew Copper's program or wait for confirmation? (Could also be - a supervillain attack in California in progress, Supergirl took out another satellite base, Batman is trying to behead the Joker in Gotham, etc). If Superman could find this stuff out just using his senses he never needed to get a job at the Star or the Planet to gain access to breaking stories.

  10. #295
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    Just because something is common doesn't make it healthy. It is not healthy to attempt to move on from one woman by kissing another. It's not fair to Diana to start a relationship while he is still not completely over Lois. It's also cowardly for Clark to never say anything at all to Lois about his true feelings -- to never actually give Lois a chance to see if she might be interested in something more.
    That's your opinion. A simple kiss doesn't really mean anything. Diana and Clark are friends. Friends sometimes become more, it doesn't mean that he cares any less for Lois or any less for Diana. Lois is with another man, Clark is free to do as he pleases and Diana is as well. We're talking about characters portrayed as adults, superhuman adults really. I'm sure Wonder Woman isn't dress shopping after one slight smooch.

    Besides we all know he'll get back to Lois soon enough, just enjoy the ride. We're only 13 issues in.

  11. #296
    Elder Member dupersuper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonofspam View Post
    I don't mind Clark or Superman making mistakes or acting impulsively or emotionally immature even because i think it humanizes him more.

    But i do understand why people would have reservations because he has never been portrayed in that way before.
    Sure he has. He's the best, but not perfect.

    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Clark Kent has been Lois Lane's colleague for nearly 75 years
    Er...they may have condensed that a tad. Also: never hang out with Klingons. You're far too liberal with the designation "coward" to survive long...

    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    following his bliss.
    ...Are you a motivational speaker in real life...?
    Pull List; seems to be too long to fit in my sig...

  12. #297

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    This is a different Clark Kent and a different Lois Lane. A Clark Kent and Lois Lane who have been colleagues for five years, not 75. We can't use pre-Flashpoint history as any sort of indicator on how this Clark would treat his feelings here. They didn't reboot their universe only to then adhere to past history in regards to everything. That Clark Kent before the reboot courted Lois Lane vigorously is irrelevant. This one didn't for some reason. And my only point is its not fair to label him a coward before finding out why.

    And there's nothing in JL #12 to suggest, even in the slightest, that Superman's kissing Diana had anything to do with Lois, period. Johns wrote that scene as two friends who shared a sudden and unexpected spark. You're making it about Lois, but no one else is.
    Technically they've never been colleagues for 75 years, at least not in continuity.
    People who chime in on vs. threads with "I don't like Superman at all, but he'd win.", STOP HELPING! Superman doesn't need your damning him with faint praise, thank you.

  13. #298
    Senior Member lariatofhestia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    The spark was explicitly tied to their mutual loneliness due to their inability to connect with the people they truly care about.



    Missing the point. The 75 year history of the character shows us that most incarnations have zero qualms about dating colleagues, so it is beyond curious why this New 52 Clark Kent is so cowardly. Clark is a coward regardless of the reason for not sharing his feelings with Lois. Whether its fear for her safety or concerns about their working relationship that has prevented Clark from opening up to her, it doesn't matter. Those explanations are just fears, which speaks to a lack of courage on Clark's part to take emotional risks. Clark's thought in this issue that if anything serious was going to happen between he and Lois, it would have already happened, suggests to me that Clark isn't holding back out of fear. It suggests he's simply waiting around on the sidelines for Lois to make the first move. In other words, his lack of forward motion with Lois is due to his own passivity rather than any concrete concerns for her safety or their professional relationship. Justice League #12 indicates that passivity is primarily motivated by the need to maintain his secret identity -- to keep those he cares about safe. As Clark's only canonical explanation it serves to indicate that Clark is indeed putting fear before love. A coward's choice, if you ask me.



    I did not suggest Clark and Diana didn't care about each other. And, no, Clark wasn't speaking to Diana about "people at large in general." They are clearly talking about close personal relationships using Steve as an example. Clark responds by sharing his own experiences with "relationships" with people he's "close to" in his civilian life. I can't think of any relationship other than Clark's relationship with Lois that fits that both fits that description and corresponds with the context of the conversation. The context, of course, is summed up in Diana's opening lines about how in an ideal world one should be able to be with the person you like. We know Diana likes Steve, and Clark likes Lois. It's not that complicated.


    Diana and Steve is far from the ideal. The girl was green as anything and you expect me to believe the first man she sees is suddenly the one? Steve acted like a bit of an ass towards her too, blaming her for it all. Oh please. I will say Johns is handling her moving on from Steve better than Clark and Lois in the Super books. You can see Diana is growing up and learning. Steve might as well been dating a teenager back then. Clark on the other hand has been mooning for Lois was 12 issues. (edit..not all 12..he was pretty okay on his date with Lucy.)

    I suppose looking at #13 as a fresh start helps ...and to me is depends on how Lobdell deals with it. He could be just very well acknowledging what Perez did and perhaps intends to do one of two things...have Clark move on thereafter...or maybe the intention is to use Diana, (which I would hate...rather they left her alone if they can't write it decently) to somehow drag the soap opera of the clark/lois/superman triangle. Their relationship has always been epitomised by that triangle. Who knows. But until we see more of Lobdell's work, you're make really sweeping judgements.
    Last edited by lariatofhestia; 11-05-2012 at 11:54 AM.

  14. #299
    Senior Member ceroxide's Avatar
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    what's so wrong about Clark spying on Louis? I mean I get the ethical side of things but lets face it we've all wanted to know more about our "significant other" specifically what happens behind our back. Sure Clark and Louis are not an item anymore but its clear that Clark hasn't moved on, and like all those people that have a hard time moving on, instead of using facebook, friends in common, "randomly" bumping into each other, tweeter, etc. Clark uses his powers.

    I'm not saying its okay for him to abuse his powers, but when he's having such a hard time dealing with everything its easy to just take short cuts to find out the things you want... and the whole chasing another girl thing. Seriously guys I know I'm not the only guy that's been crying over a girl while flirting with another and sleeping with someone else, feelings makes us do stupid things, and basic needs and desires makes us act like douche-bags so stop pissing on Clark he's going through a rough spot

  15. #300
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Missing the point. The 75 year history of the character shows us that most incarnations have zero qualms about dating colleagues, so it is beyond curious why this New 52 Clark Kent is so cowardly. Clark is a coward regardless of the reason for not sharing his feelings with Lois. Whether its fear for her safety or concerns about their working relationship that has prevented Clark from opening up to her, it doesn't matter. Those explanations are just fears, which speaks to a lack of courage on Clark's part to take emotional risks. Clark's thought in this issue that if anything serious was going to happen between he and Lois, it would have already happened, suggests to me that Clark isn't holding back out of fear. It suggests he's simply waiting around on the sidelines for Lois to make the first move. In other words, his lack of forward motion with Lois is due to his own passivity rather than any concrete concerns for her safety or their professional relationship. Justice League #12 indicates that passivity is primarily motivated by the need to maintain his secret identity -- to keep those he cares about safe. As Clark's only canonical explanation it serves to indicate that Clark is indeed putting fear before love. A coward's choice, if you ask me.
    I get the point, I just don't think it holds any particular sort of validity in judging the creative choices in this instance. This is a case where the onus is on the readers to be smart enough to understand this is a new continuity. I mean, a reboot doesn't make past materials non-existent. They're still there, and being there its only natural to compare and contrast past materials to the new. But noting curious differences between one incarnation or the other doesn't make the creative choices of the new any less valid. So I stand by my belief that how Clark acted in past continuities is completely irrelevant to how he's approaching his feelings now. They're going in a different approach. Not necessarily better, not necessarily worse, just different. And as long as they stay true to that characterization, and flesh it out and let readers in to the rhyme and reason for the way he is in this regard, just like anything else, then its perfectly valid. If even then, people want to rip on Clark for being a coward just because they're mad he and Lois aren't together in this continuity, well then fair enough I suppose.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 11-05-2012 at 04:07 PM.

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