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  1. #271
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Apparently Clark is just a terrible person for having conflicting feelings about a colleague of five years of whom he's had feelings for taking a new step in her own relationship, while recently having been introduced to the possibility of another love interest in Diana. I don't know why but despite Clark being a single man with no commitments whatsoever, this is a no-no for him. Or apparently some are under the delusion that such a confusing confluence of feelings for more than one person just never happens to any decent person. Not to mention instead of viewing the events of JL #12 as they were intended, and as they indeed played out on page, as a friend checking on another friend that took an unexpected romantic turn, people are pretending for some reason that Superman is now this loathsome jiggalo who set out to grope Diana then immediately return home to pine over Lois Lane.
    I never said that something simultaneously existing between Clark and Lois and Kal and Diana made him a terrible, indecent person. I did say his spying on Lois made him creepy, but never made any explicit value judgments on Clark for his conflicting feelings other than to say it was "awful" to characterize him that way, which is no where close to your hyperbolic "jiggalo" label. So, why do I think it's awful or, said differently, worrying that Clark would be characterized this way? In truth, I'm more concerned for Diana's sake. I don't like the idea of Superman potentially using her as a rebound or way to get over someone. I also don't like the sense of entitlement I get from Clark. Clark's made zero genuine attempts to share his feelings for Lois with her, yet often has a petulant reaction to events in her romantic life; he's placed all of the burden on her for their friendship blossoming into something more.

    The way Lobdell wrote the issue, Clark actually seemed to be mentally pulling out his kiss with Diana as some sort of defense against his bruised ego and disappointed hopes. Basically, it was as if he discovered Lois was drifting further away from him as a possibility because of her moving in with Jonathan and so, to make himself feel better and repair his pride, he reminded himself that, hey, I've kissed Wonder Woman. Who cares if Diana, as far as we know, hasn't exactly given him assurances that she's ready for a relationship or anything with him at all at the moment? Clark doesn't seem to. In other words, the context Lobdell provided makes it appear as if Clark is using Diana as his go-to psychological band aid for emotional wounds from unrequited love that have yet to heal. Perhaps if it came across as something Clark was doing more subconsciously I'd be more okay with it. Instead, Lobdell's writing made it feel like Clark was conscious of what he was doing, and I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that.
    Last edited by misslane38; 11-04-2012 at 02:38 PM.

  2. #272
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    The spying was bad form, I've agreed with that from the start. I see no form of entitlement from Clark though. All his recent arguments with Lois has been about the Planet, not about her personal life. He's kept his mopyness about Jonathan to himself for the most part. Now, could some of that seep in when he's arguing with her about the job? Sure, maybe a little bit. But its not a hidden motivating factor for their recent clashes. The passion he shows for his profession is real and not some sort of mask over him just being butthurt over Lois having a boyfriend.

    As for your speculations over the Diana kiss, I don't think Lobdell went there at all. I see nothing in his writing that suggests any of the hidden meanings you're suggesting. I think you're reading way too much into it. Lobdell's context, at its basest level is simple; he's just acknowledging a current event that happened in another title. In-story, he's just recalling it because he finds himself surprised that Lois's relationship is still bothering him. He's trying to make heads or tails out of his feelings.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 11-04-2012 at 02:38 PM.

  3. #273
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    You're arguing with a brick wall...

  4. #274

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    I had read the comments about the "creepy spying" before i actually got the issue yesterday. Strangely enough I didn't see what he did as spying on Lois. They noted that Lois texting around Perry was unusual, so I took it that Clark was trying to see what made Lois take this action. Not because he wanted to know about Lois' personal life, but rather because he assumed the texting was professional and something texted to a news producer that was out of the ordinary might involve a job for "Superman". I can see based on Clark's actions in Superman #1 how it could be seen as another "Spying on Lois" moment, but it wasn't my first thought on the matter, so I prefer to view it the way described above- unless we get more evidence that Lobdell is playing up the Clark-as-stalker elements.

  5. #275
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    The way Lobdell wrote the issue, Clark actually seemed to be mentally pulling out his kiss with Diana as some sort of defense against his bruised ego and disappointed hopes.
    Wait, what?

  6. #276
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    I had read the comments about the "creepy spying" before i actually got the issue yesterday. Strangely enough I didn't see what he did as spying on Lois. They noted that Lois texting around Perry was unusual, so I took it that Clark was trying to see what made Lois take this action. Not because he wanted to know about Lois' personal life, but rather because he assumed the texting was professional and something texted to a news producer that was out of the ordinary might involve a job for "Superman". I can see based on Clark's actions in Superman #1 how it could be seen as another "Spying on Lois" moment, but it wasn't my first thought on the matter, so I prefer to view it the way described above- unless we get more evidence that Lobdell is playing up the Clark-as-stalker elements.
    Um, it doesn't matter if Clark was curious about what special news might have prompted Lois to unusually text in front of Perry. First, as Clark noted, it was rare for anyone to text while Perry was in the room because he is the boss. The problem is: Perry isn't Lois's boss. So Lois texting in front of Perry shouldn't have been a cause for suspicion or alarm. Secondly, even if it was, then Clark can ask Lois if something is up. He shouldn't assume her private correspondence is his to spy on just because it *might* be news instead of something personal. This isn't about Clark butting in on Lois's personal life; it's about him spying on her period. I don't care if Lois was getting texts from the President of the United States about Iran bombing Israel. It's none of Clark's business unless Lois decided it's his business.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    Wait, what?
    Since I'm not sure what has got you confused, I'll try to explain. I said Clark pulls out his kiss with Diana as a way to soothe his wounded pride and broken heart based on the following scene:



    In the scene, one can see Clark's thought process. He only recalls his kiss with Wonder Woman when he's trying to convince himself he's moved on. He seems to be genuinely surprised at how much seeing Lois getting closer to Jonathan still bothers him despite the fact that he's kissed another woman. He's basically attempting to remind himself that he shouldn't care or feel hurt at all because he's got someone too. This bothers me because it suggests that while he's getting closer to Diana, his hope is still that Lois would want to be with him. So if, for example, this scene had played out differently and the text from Jonathan would have been about he and Lois breaking up, and then later Lois would have given Clark reason to hope for something more between them, he would have quickly thrown cold water on anything happening with Diana because she's not who his heart really wants; because, again, he hasn't gotten over Lois yet. It's not wholly unusual for this type of thing to happen, but it is messy, and it is discomfiting to think of Clark being an emotional coward where Lois is concerned and unfair where Diana is concerned.

    I could maybe expect this kind of behavior from an adolescent, but Clark is, what, 27 now? He should respect Lois enough to at least tell her how he feels instead of waiting around for her to make the first move and he should respect Diana enough to understand not only her inexperience when it comes to men and relationships, but also the vulnerable position she was in because of what had happened with Steve. Like with the spying, this Clark seems to be ruled by his impulses -- by his id or pleasure principle -- so that whatever he wants, he feels he should have or be able to do. It is not very flattering or admirable, I must say, but that is just my opinion.
    Last edited by misslane38; 11-04-2012 at 10:18 PM.

  7. #277
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    .........Hey..so no one has talked about Superman's new (well new to the new 52) Super 5 o'clock shadow. I think I like it, really didn't think I would but I really like it; keeps him rugged even while wearing his armor lol

  8. #278
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    I like it when he's Clark, that burning the midnight oil look. But I don't like it when he's Superman. Sometimes full-bearded Superman is cool, like in Exile, but no to the scruff! Reminds me of evil Superman in Superman III.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 11-04-2012 at 10:39 PM.

  9. #279
    Veteran Member Sonofspam's Avatar
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    I don't mind Clark or Superman making mistakes or acting impulsively or emotionally immature even because i think it humanizes him more.

    But i do understand why people would have reservations because he has never been portrayed in that way before.

  10. #280
    Savior of the Universe Flash Gordon's Avatar
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    In the scene, one can see Clark's thought process. He only recalls his kiss with Wonder Woman when he's trying to convince himself he's moved on. He seems to be genuinely surprised at how much seeing Lois getting closer to Jonathan still bothers him despite the fact that he's kissed another woman. He's basically attempting to remind himself that he shouldn't care or feel hurt at all because he's got someone too. This bothers me because it suggests that while he's getting closer to Diana, his hope is still that Lois would want to be with him. So if, for example, this scene had played out differently and the text from Jonathan would have been about he and Lois breaking up, and then later Lois would have given Clark reason to hope for something more between them, he would have quickly thrown cold water on anything happening with Diana because she's not who his heart really wants; because, again, he hasn't gotten over Lois yet. It's not wholly unusual for this type of thing to happen, but it is messy, and it is discomfiting to think of Clark being an emotional coward where Lois is concerned and unfair where Diana is concerned.
    It's a normal thing. How many times have we all been involved with someone and still held feelings for another, on some level? He's not really being an emotional coward, he's being healthy. Lois is with another man, he has to move on and he's trying to. It's a really simple idea actually, I don't get the big deal here.

  11. #281
    Veteran Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    Plus I don't think its fair to label him a coward when we've never even got into the reasons why he's never pursued anything. I mean, maybe he didn't ever feel it was proper, being her colleague. Maybe he didn't think romance and the workplace mixed. Hell I think past writers like Perez said something very similar to that being the reason in an interview. Granted it hasn't been put to print yet so it doesn't count, but if something like that is indeed pointed out to be the reason, I don't chalk that up to cowardice. In any case we don't know details yet so I don't think its fair to make a judgment either way. And he's certainly not being unfair to Diana when to date they've shared one impromptu kiss. They haven't even been on a date yet. He hasn't been unfair to her because he hasn't even been in a position to be unfair to her, nor her to him.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 11-04-2012 at 10:51 PM.

  12. #282
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    I like it when he's Clark, that burning the midnight oil look. But I don't like it when he's Superman. Sometimes full-bearded Superman is cool, like in Exile, but no to the scruff! Reminds me of evil Superman in Superman III.
    Yeah I guess I'm the same too......forgot all about evil Superman lol

  13. #283
    Senior Member Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sacred Knight View Post
    Plus I don't think its fair to label him a coward when we've never even got into the reasons why he's never pursued anything. I mean, maybe he didn't ever feel it was proper, being her colleague. Maybe he didn't think romance and the workplace mixed. Hell I think past writers like Perez said something very similar to that being the reason in an interview. Granted it hasn't been put to print yet so it doesn't count, but if something like that is indeed pointed out to be the reason, I don't chalk that up to cowardice. In any case we don't know details yet so I don't think its fair to make a judgment either way. And he's certainly not being unfair to Diana when to date they've shared one impromptu kiss. They haven't even been on a date yet. He hasn't been unfair to her because he hasn't even been in a position to be unfair to her, nor her to him.

    Yeah or maybe he was just afraid for he safety (most versions of Superman use this reasoning). Lois was already putting herself in a lot of danger with her job.....why would Clark add to that with his crazy life? I just don't see the problem that others have with this given what I and other have said.

  14. #284

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    Quote Originally Posted by misslane38 View Post
    Um, it doesn't matter if Clark was curious about what special news might have prompted Lois to unusually text in front of Perry. First, as Clark noted, it was rare for anyone to text while Perry was in the room because he is the boss. The problem is: Perry isn't Lois's boss. So Lois texting in front of Perry shouldn't have been a cause for suspicion or alarm. Secondly, even if it was, then Clark can ask Lois if something is up. He shouldn't assume her private correspondence is his to spy on just because it *might* be news instead of something personal. This isn't about Clark butting in on Lois's personal life; it's about him spying on her period. I don't care if Lois was getting texts from the President of the United States about Iran bombing Israel. It's none of Clark's business unless Lois decided it's his business.
    Sorry, but he's Superman, part of the original reasoning of his being a reporter is finding out about breaking news. If there was a strong indication Clark was simply spying to find out some personal details, I'd agree with your logic. In this case it's no worse to me than Clark listening to two patrons in a diner with super-hearing after he notes something suspicious. Or any of the number of times in past continuities he managed to be in the right place to save Lois life because he tracked her heartbeat or checked her whereabouts using X-ray vision when he suspected she was in danger.

  15. #285
    Senior Member misslane38's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flash Gordon View Post
    It's a normal thing. How many times have we all been involved with someone and still held feelings for another, on some level? He's not really being an emotional coward, he's being healthy. Lois is with another man, he has to move on and he's trying to. It's a really simple idea actually, I don't get the big deal here.
    Just because something is common doesn't make it healthy. It is not healthy to attempt to move on from one woman by kissing another. It's not fair to Diana to start a relationship while he is still not completely over Lois. It's also cowardly for Clark to never say anything at all to Lois about his true feelings -- to never actually give Lois a chance to see if she might be interested in something more. Basically, while I can accept Clark getting caught up in a moment with Diana in Justice League #12, he should not be pursuing anything serious with her until he has some sort of closure from Lois. And that kind of closure, I believe, requires talking to Lois about his feelings. Until that happens, Clark looks bad any time he uses Diana as a way of directly combating any errant moments of pining. Because, at the moment, that sort of behavior cheapens what he might have with Diana by making her look like an emotional band-aid. Diana deserves to be with someone who cares about and likes her for who she is not who she might help him forget. Sometimes one needs to step outside Clark's point of view to think about how his actions affect the people he cares about. Bottom line? It's okay for Clark to make mistakes. It's okay for his life -- his emotional life -- to be messy. But let's acknowledge that his behavior is not ideal or healthy. Clark is behaving immaturely, so instead of making excuses, this issue should instead be perceived as a starting point for an arc that demonstrates growth.

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