Batman Incorporated #4 Preview/Discussion

[tylenoljones]

Once you've dealt with superheroes changing identities when they feel like it, as with Robin to Redwing or Mr Unknown to Batman to Mr Unknown, you kind of don't have to worry about every single little change. They foregrounded the change of identities of those two, and they left Batman to Nightwing out. But, the idea is already set, the practice and its commonality.

Unless anyone can offer firsthand testimony they were derailed by the change from Batman to Nightwing, it's a nonissue. And, even so, it's still internally consistent with the superhero culture and habits as we see them in the comic; superheroes change identities when they want to do things their current identity cannot or should not, or because why the hell not.

Exactly. The costume changes are a non-issue. The identity changes don't matter. If there had never been a Nightwing, and suddenly Dick was running around as Nightwing, I might buy that as confusing for people. But Nightwing was already a presence in Morrison's run, and Dick wanted to return to the role.

So what are we left with? Damian and Bruce working together? Batman Inc. is nothing but a massive team up with every Bat-character there is. Bruce has a reason in story for working with Damian, and it's a different set of circumstances from what was going on previously.This entire discussion is absurd.

As I've said, he's not just expecting Batman Inc. to explain it's own storyline, but that of the greater DCU. His examples are just ridiculous. They didn't even show Grayson's decision to become Nightwing again in the actual Nightwing title; and DC felt that was perfectly appropraite for new readers. I think I'll take the opinion of the company publishing the books over some random with a chip on his shoulder on a message board.

[Retro315]

Once you've dealt with superheroes changing identities when they feel like it, as with Robin to Redwing or Mr Unknown to Batman to Mr Unknown, you kind of don't have to worry about every single little change. They foregrounded the change of identities of those two, and they left Batman to Nightwing out. But, the idea is already set, the practice and its commonality.

Unless anyone can offer firsthand testimony they were derailed by the change from Batman to Nightwing, it's a nonissue. And, even so, it's still internally consistent with the superhero culture and habits as we see them in the comic; superheroes change identities when they want to do things their current identity cannot or should not, or because why the hell not.

The villains, too. Joker was 100% down for the fun of switching identities and playing disguise. Talia spent a lot of time in disguise. And to top it off, Doctor Hurt didn't change his look very often, but the guy has more Aliases and A.K.A.s than any other villain I can think of, and none of them were red herrings.

Black Glove. Brother Simon Hurt. Doctor Hurt. Our Thomas Wayne. El Penitente. Barbatos. The Hyper-Adapter. The Devil. The Hole In Things. Mangrove Pierce. John Mayhew, briefly.

Nightwing's change might've caught people off guard because suddenly he's Batman and then suddenly he's not, and neither got an explanation in Morrison's pages ... but changing masks has been a constant theme. Tim Drake went from his V2 Robin suit to Red Robin to the New 52 look. Babs donned a virtual reality Batgirl suit, then retired Oracle and got back in the real cape.

To me, the glaring omission of the various Batgirls since the relaunch is far more jarring than Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian and every other character ever changing costumes.

[tylenoljones]

To me, the glaring omission of the various Batgirls since the relaunch is far more jarring than Dick, Jason, Tim, Damian and every other character ever changing costumes.

There's that, and the fact that I recall Morrison talking about Catwoman in an interview once, right after Batman Inc's first volume had launched. At the time he said he'd enjoyed writing her and planned on bringing her back in the second volume. But there's no mention of her whatsoever in v2. Which is understandable, considering Selina no longer knows Bruce is Batman, and that was key to their relationship in the books opening arc. Disappointing, nonetheless.

I can't help but wonder what else we lost with the reboot, and what we might've seen involving Cass, Steph, Selina and Oracle. Oh well.

[Brack360]

]
I can't help but wonder what else we lost with the reboot, and what we might've seen involving Cass, Steph, Selina and Oracle. Oh well.

I think one of the biggest unanswered questions is the whole subplot involving Kathy Kane in v1. Will that be addressed again? Morrison reinserted Kathy as the original Batwoman and Bette Kane as the original Batgirl, but now it seems that DC's official edict is that Barbara Gordon was the only Batgirl ever.

[Mr. Holmes]

Morrison basically has to try to follow the New 52, but he also has a "spiritual canon" of things that can't necessarily be shown in the current Inc, but exists in his mind as part of the whole saga. So that would include Kathy Kane, as well as Steph, Cass, etc.

[direction9]

I think one of the biggest unanswered questions is the whole subplot involving Kathy Kane in v1. Will that be addressed again? Morrison reinserted Kathy as the original Batwoman and Bette Kane as the original Batgirl, but now it seems that DC's official edict is that Barbara Gordon was the only Batgirl ever.

how sure are we that kathy kane = scorpiana? there was that image of....kathy i believe, on the phone lounging, that would be a perfectly fine endpoint for that plot. except why would she still be alive if she weren't scorpiana, which seems to have been so telegraphed.......
or was there a red herring?

[T Hedge Coke]

When were we even led to believe she was Scorpiana? Am I just blanking that?

[Choppa]

the only thing inconsistent about any of this is that the universe got rebooted. this comic isn't ignoring that, it's enveloping it. don't be obtuse when you know there was a reboot halfway through this story, that resides in continuity.
so i guess, yeah, what's your point?

The point is that there was a reboot and changes made earlier in Morrison's run were changed back because of it, so when reading it on its own the story can be inconsistent. What wasn't clear about that?

Yes, I'm serious. I answered each of your concerns. If the explanations aren't to your satisfaction, thats not my problem.

Taken out of the context of the new52, nothing in the story contradicts itself. We see changes similar to the changes inbetween the 1st and 2nd volumes of Batman Inc. in various television programs and ongoing book series.

And the claim that I'm taking for granted that the reader is aware of DCnu changes is, frankly, baseless and absurd. I barely even follow Bat-continuity anymore, beyond skimming Snyder's Batman and reading the occasional preview. Morrsion even :gasp: forshadowed some of these changes. When it comes to Batman comics, I'm basically one of the Morrison only readers you just described. And Morrsion not only navigates these changes effortlessly; he makes it seem as though they were part of the story all along. Nothing has been "undone", as you claim.

I'm going by your comments. Didn't you say that Bruce and Damian being partners was established in the larger context of the DCnU? How is it baseless then to assume that you're saying the changes are explained externally, when your explanation is based on something that happened externally?

Where are all these in-story explanations? If I missed them that's my fault, but what you mentioned takes into consideration all of the other things that happened outside the run. Simply acknowledging that Dick is Nightwing again isn't an explanation. And normally it probably wouldn't matter, but when an entire section of the run is devoted to becoming Batman, it's a bit awkward to suddenly put him back in his old role with just a throw away line mentioning that it happened.

You also said that a lot has happened between Vol's 1 and 2. Has does someone reading through the entire story know that? Was there some kind of disclaimer in Volume 2 that I missed? If it's taken for granted that we don't know how much time has passed between the stories, does that mean that R.I.P didn't directly follow The Black Glove storyline? If things changed in a similar fashion between all of the arcs then the changes between Inc 1 and 2 wouldn't be inconsistent at all. But up until that point all of the characters had the same identities and costumes and whatever else changed.

Exactly. The costume changes are a non-issue. The identity changes don't matter. If there had never been a Nightwing, and suddenly Dick was running around as Nightwing, I might buy that as confusing for people. But Nightwing was already a presence in Morrison's run, and Dick wanted to return to the role.

So what are we left with? Damian and Bruce working together? Batman Inc. is nothing but a massive team up with every Bat-character there is. Bruce has a reason in story for working with Damian, and it's a different set of circumstances from what was going on previously.This entire discussion is absurd.

As I've said, he's not just expecting Batman Inc. to explain it's own storyline, but that of the greater DCU. His examples are just ridiculous. They didn't even show Grayson's decision to become Nightwing again in the actual Nightwing title; and DC felt that was perfectly appropraite for new readers. I think I'll take the opinion of the comony publishing the books over some random with a chip on his shoulder on a message board.

I don't expect the run to explain the greater changes in the DCnU, but if they change story elements or don't jive with what's previously been established it is inconsistent. Certainly Dick expressed the desire to become Nightwing again, but Bruce specifically said he wanted him to remain as Batman. Do you really think that if the reboot hadn't happened that Dick would have just become Nightwing again for no reason?

And who cares what DC thinks or what happened in Nightwing's book? The discussion was about the consistency of Morrison's run within its own context. Those things don't matter.

[tylenoljones]

And normally it probably wouldn't matter, but when an entire section of the run is devoted to becoming Batman, it's a bit awkward to suddenly put him back in his old role with just a throw away line mentioning that it happened.

That's incorrect as well. A large portion of Morrison's run was devoted to Dick being Batman, but as far as becoming Batman, it was quite abrupt. If you were only reading Morrison's work, and not the other books published around the same time.

We went from Bruce being Batman in one issue to Dick as Batman and Damian as Robin the next. We never got to see a discussion between Dick and Damian, or why Damian finally chose the role. We never saw Damian tell his mother about his decision to become Robin. It doesn't matter. Some time had passed since Batman's death, and things had changed due to the circumstances. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.

If you were fine with all of that I have no idea why you'd see a problem with anything here. On the other hand, if you weren't okay with those explanations, or thought they were too abrupt, then I can't imagine anything we can say to convince you, and there's no point in continuing the discussion.

No one seems to have a problem with the run being consistent within itself except for you.

[Choppa]

That's incorrect as well. A large portion of Morrison's run was devoted to Dick being Batman, but as far as becoming Batman, it was quite abrupt. If you were only reading Morrison's work, and not the other books published around the same time.

We went from Bruce being Batman in one issue to Dick as Batman and Damian as Robin the next. We never got to see a discussion between Dick and Damian, or why Damian finally chose the role. We never saw Damian tell his mother about his decision to become Robin. It doesn't matter. Some time had passed since Batman's death, and things had changed due to the circumstances. I don't know why that's so hard to understand.

If you were fine with all of that I have no idea why you'd see a problem with anything here. On the other hand, if you weren't okay with those explanations, or thought they were too abrupt, then I can't imagine anything we can say to convince you, and there's no point in continuing the discussion.

No one seems to have a problem with the run being consistent within itself except for you.

I don't have a problem with the run or any confusion with what happened. There's a difference between recognizing an inconsistency and not understanding why it is one in the first place. I didn't literally mean Dick's change from Nightwing to Batman, but obviously the fact that Dick spent a while as Batman, but then suddenly changed back despite being told to remain as Batman. It wouldn't be an issue if not for the fact that he said that. And Bruce was already back for a while and operating alongside Dick as the other Batman, so what change in circumstances are you talking about?

[direction9]

I don't have a problem with the run or any confusion with what happened. There's a difference between recognizing an inconsistency and not understanding why it is one in the first place. I didn't literally mean Dick's change from Nightwing to Batman, but obviously the fact that Dick spent a while as Batman, but then suddenly changed back despite being told to remain as Batman. It wouldn't be an issue if not for the fact that he said that. And Bruce was already back for a while and operating alongside Dick as the other Batman, so what change in circumstances are you talking about?

it just doesn't feel at all inconsistent that dick isn't batman anymore, because it always seemed temporary (and bruce was lost in time for most of it). so it never felt off when we saw him switch out of this role. similarly, since the plot point of bruce's disapproval of damian's methods, and damian constantly asserting that he didn't kill anyone, or that he was forced to, and bruce telling damian to stay at home......there has never been a moment that felt inconsistent there either. damian wasn't suddenly an approved sidekick and the two of them weren't just suddenly going out on adventures.

so please explain what inconsistency there is here, yknow?

[direction9]

When were we even led to believe she was Scorpiana? Am I just blanking that?

this just seemed to jump out at me but i really need to know if i'm going down the wrong path here. you're definitely someone who would have picked up on it if this was going down, so maybe i'm losing it. in that case, kathy kane's plot seems pretty alright the way grant left it.

[Mac!]

in that case, kathy kane's plot seems pretty alright the way grant left it.

Not really. Her death is totally glossed over. To the point where one assumes she'll make a re-appearance.

[DrSimonHurt]

this just seemed to jump out at me but i really need to know if i'm going down the wrong path here. you're definitely someone who would have picked up on it if this was going down, so maybe i'm losing it. in that case, kathy kane's plot seems pretty alright the way grant left it.

Scorpiana is a different person. Batman and El Gaucho fought her in volume 1. He even danced with her in her civilian guise.

[T Hedge Coke]

I don't think Kathy is Scorpiana putting on a fake accent or anything.

But, I am actually content with how we left Kathy, when we also left behind the Netz subplot.