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  1. #211
    Elder Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiceRoll View Post
    From what I hear, Fear Itself. Failing that...Hulk vs Thor DVD?
    I meant more actual 616 appearances.

    You could maybe consider Fear Itself, but really Thor came out looking pretty good in that fight. Hulk was the one who came out looking bad in that event considering he should have been powered up by the hammer and he gets in a fight with spider-woman? And then vampires? Why was he even in the event other than to give us a Thor vs. Hulk fight?

    The whole Nulk thing made little sense. Hulk should have broken free of Nul's influence a lot sooner considering guys like Nightmare have tried and failed to bring Hulk under their control.

    You could make the argument that Nulk hammered Thor real good till he got BFR'd but considering he was supposed to be powered up eh. I felt it was more Hulk being jerked around for a Thor-centric event that could just as easily not had him involved at all.

  2. #212
    Elder Member Ptrvc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HaveAtThee View Post
    Since when is Thor considered an "Earthbound" hero? He's the son of a skyfather and elder goddess. Sure apparently he's Midgard's Asgardian champion, but he's not exclusively an Earthbound character. Nor should he be.
    Eh I'm using Earthbound hero as shorthand for the characters who spend most of their time on the Earth. Plenty of heroes, Iron Man, the FF, Hulk etc. Have had adventures in space, even regularly have them there. And Doctor Strange used to go around to different mystic realms, often dragging the Defenders with him.

    Its more of a shorthand for a character not cosmically focused than anything, and I'll give you that its not a perfect term.

  3. #213
    Dark Personna King Malevolent1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarejourneyman View Post
    We get it, you disagree with established canon.

    But, just for the record, vast amounts of superhuman strength w/o the leverage to actually move a thing would just look like worth shattering stomping.

    Look, instead of trying to selectively toss the character's history out the window, why not appreciate his weaknesses as much as his strengths? Hulk can be manipulated. He can be dominated. He lacks ways to deal with flying opponents. He can be energy drained. He can be dimension dumped.

    Literally, the only things he has on Thor are Strength and Durability. Why not give him that and focus on Thor's billion other powers that make him a more versatile hero?
    No. I'm making the distinction between what was established in continuity 40 some odd years ago (hence the reference to Defenders #10. The only ignoring I see is by others who would otherwise rather ignore that ever happened. And why not? Tom DeFalco did. Any why are you so uptight about it? I'm not Stan Lee. I didn't create the characters. All I'm relating is what he mentioned in his book Origins of Marvel Comics. I know what Stan's original intent was when he originally created the characters.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEgIfpb5NHY

    Stan's intent was to outdo every character that had already been created at the time, including the Hulk in raw, brute strength. Later, it was decided that Hulk could get stronger the angrier he got. However, that "ceiling" was Thor. Later, as I've already mentioned, DeFalco came along and abrbitrarily decided that Hulk should actually exceed Thor in strength.

    There's an old saying, "don't kill the messenger". I didn't create these characters, nor did I have anything to do with the evolution of each character and why they are currently where they are in terms of power, not withstanding, current writer ignorance of established continuity, or PIS.

    Thor was originally intended to be stronger than Hulk. Sorry that upsets you.
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  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malevolent1 View Post
    No. I'm making the distinction between what was established in continuity 40 some odd years ago (hence the reference to Defenders #10. The only ignoring I see is by others who would otherwise rather ignore that ever happened. And why not? Tom DeFalco did. Any why are you so uptight about it? I'm not Stan Lee. I didn't create the characters. All I'm relating is what he mentioned in his book Origins of Marvel Comics. I know what Stan's original intent was when he originally created the characters.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEgIfpb5NHY

    Stan's intent was to outdo every character that had already been created at the time, including the Hulk in raw, brute strength. Later, it was decided that Hulk could get stronger the angrier he got. However, that "ceiling" was Thor. Later, as I've already mentioned, DeFalco came along and abrbitrarily decided that Hulk should actually exceed Thor in strength.

    There's an old saying, "don't kill the messenger". I didn't create these characters, nor did I have anything to do with the evolution of each character and why they are currently where they are in terms of power, not withstanding, current writer ignorance of established continuity, or PIS.

    Thor was originally intended to be stronger than Hulk. Sorry that upsets you.
    Its true, Lee wanted to create an uber-hero. I think the words were something like "A man stronger than the Hulk and smarter than Mr. Fantastic in a godly wisdom sort of way".

    I just don't think thats been a consistent vision. Thor's powers, just like most of the O5, have fluctuated greatly throughout the years. We have not seen the God Blast in decades, if i'm not mistaken, nor have we seen Thor use any sorcery for a while (though, i'll admit, I'm not up on JIM or Thor at the moment, so there may be some blind spots). But maybe thats coming back with God of Thunder, given the pledge to "write Thor as a god".

    Its just a question of how writers want to use their characters. Pak wanted a worldbreaker hulk, so he got it. Straczynski wanted a more mortal asgard, and he got that.

  5. #215
    Your intellectual savior thirdfalcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malevolent1 View Post
    Thor was originally intended to be stronger than Hulk. Sorry that upsets you.
    Hulk is different than he was then, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's common knowledge by people that didn't even know that Thor was a comic book character before his movie came out that Hulk gets stronger as he gets angrier.

    Stan may not have intended it, but that genie is never going back in that bottle. We don't live in the world as it was 40 years ago. We live in the present, and right now Hulk has no ceiling on his strength. I bet Stan isn't mad about that, why are you?

  6. #216
    Senior Member FIFTY-TWO (52)'s Avatar
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    Not a Thor expert, but given Marvel media outside of comics, I'd say it's firmly imprinted on social consciousness that Hulk is the strongest Marvel hero. Any time Thor and Hulk have met in conflict, Hulk has had the upper hand in strength against Thor.
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  7. #217
    Dark Personna King Malevolent1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdfalcon View Post
    Hulk is different than he was then, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's common knowledge by people that didn't even know that Thor was a comic book character before his movie came out that Hulk gets stronger as he gets angrier.

    Stan may not have intended it, but that genie is never going back in that bottle. We don't live in the world as it was 40 years ago. We live in the present, and right now Hulk has no ceiling on his strength. I bet Stan isn't mad about that, why are you?
    You obviously did not read my previous posts. I was the one who pointed out what Stan originally intended and what the case is today, roughly chronicling why things are the way they are today.

    Before you ASS-ume something, read the previous posts. Thor was intended to be stronger than Hulk when the character was first created by Stan Lee. I said that. Later, it was decided Hulk could get stronger the angrier he gets. I also said that. Defenders #10 however indicated that the ceiling for Hulk's anger was about Thor's level, as that book clearly indicates. DeFalco came after all this and decided Hulk should be clearly stronger than Thor. What about that did you not get?

    In the future it may be helpful to actually read what I said before making statements with no basis.

    And in case there is any further confusion: The point of making the comment I did about Thor's strength, what the intent with the character was in the first place, then pointing out where he is today is that was the beginning of Thor's de-powering (in answer to the OP). It started slowly, and has evolved to where it is today.
    Last edited by Malevolent1; 11-05-2012 at 01:54 PM.
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  8. #218

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    Quote Originally Posted by FIFTY-TWO (52) View Post
    Any time Thor and Hulk have met in conflict, Hulk has had the upper hand in strength against Thor.
    Except that thats NOT true. Even in Hulk #300 when Hulk was on a mindless rampage, Thor pretty much stopped him head on.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malevolent1 View Post
    You obviously did not read my previous posts. I was the one who pointed out what Stan originally intended and what the case is today, roughly chronicling why things are the way they are today.

    Before you ASS-ume something, read the previous posts. Thor was intended to be stronger than Hulk when the character was first created by Stan Lee. I said that. Later, it was decided Hulk could get stronger the angrier he gets. I also said that. Defenders #10 however indicated that the ceiling for Hulk's anger was about Thor's level, as that book clearly indicates. DeFalco came after all this and decided Hulk should be clearly stronger than Thor. What about that did you not get?

    In the future it may be helpful to actually read what I said before making statements with no basis.

    And in case there is any further confusion: The point of making the comment I did about Thor's strength, what the intent with the character was in the first place, then pointing out where he is today is that was the beginning of Thor's de-powering (in answer to the OP). It started slowly, and has evolved to where it is today.
    That was in 1973.

    39 years ago.

    Thor has been reborn at least three times since then. His powers have changed.

    In that timespan, Hulk has had several incarnations. The Green Scar operated at a different level than previous hulks.

  10. #220

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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarejourneyman View Post
    Thor has been reborn at least three times since then. His powers have changed.
    Theoretically he's still a skyfather.

  11. #221
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    Quote Originally Posted by davew128 View Post
    Theoretically he's still a skyfather.
    Thats unclear to me, but i have not Thored for almost a year. I mean, Odin and Freya are around now, right?

  12. #222
    Senior Member FIFTY-TWO (52)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davew128 View Post
    Except that thats NOT true. Even in Hulk #300 when Hulk was on a mindless rampage, Thor pretty much stopped him head on.
    You clearly cut out the part where I said "outside comics".
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  13. #223
    Your intellectual savior thirdfalcon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malevolent1 View Post
    You obviously did not read my previous posts. I was the one who pointed out what Stan originally intended and what the case is today, roughly chronicling why things are the way they are today.

    Before you ASS-ume something, read the previous posts. Thor was intended to be stronger than Hulk when the character was first created by Stan Lee. I said that. Later, it was decided Hulk could get stronger the angrier he gets. I also said that. Defenders #10 however indicated that the ceiling for Hulk's anger was about Thor's level, as that book clearly indicates. DeFalco came after all this and decided Hulk should be clearly stronger than Thor. What about that did you not get?

    In the future it may be helpful to actually read what I said before making statements with no basis.

    And in case there is any further confusion: The point of making the comment I did about Thor's strength, what the intent with the character was in the first place, then pointing out where he is today is that was the beginning of Thor's de-powering (in answer to the OP). It started slowly, and has evolved to where it is today.
    I did read your post so before you call me an ass, maybe you should consider that I didn't say anything that contradicts what you said. If you don't like the conclusions that I come too from reading your insight (which is interesting and something that I didn't know btw), maybe you should be more clear with what you want me to take from it. I don't see how Thor has been depowered, he's just running into people that are more powerful than he ever was. He has stayed the same. If he had run into a sufficiently angry current Hulk back then Thor would not be stronger than him. If he had run into the Phoenix back then, he would have lost to it too.

    Are you saying that you are ok with the current state of things? I can only assume that you are offended by me calling you mad. I don't see what else I said that could possibly upset you, but if I was wrong than you must be at peace with it and just posted to drop some interesting knowledge on us. Otherwise I don't get where your coming from or why you feel the need to insult me.

    TLDR: Your Jimmys seem a bit rustled to me.
    Last edited by thirdfalcon; 11-05-2012 at 08:38 PM.

  14. #224
    Dark Personna King Malevolent1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thirdfalcon View Post
    I did read your post so before you call me an ass, maybe you should consider that I didn't say anything that contradicts what you said. If you don't like the conclusions that I come too from reading your insight (which is interesting and something that I didn't know btw), maybe you should be more clear with what you want me to take from it. I don't see how Thor has been depowered, he's just running into people that are more powerful than he ever was. He has stayed the same.
    OR....maybe you just should not assume I mean something, then run and comment. In the future, if you don't know what I mean, why not ask a specific, directed question.
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  15. #225
    Dark Personna King Malevolent1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarejourneyman View Post
    That was in 1973.

    39 years ago.

    Thor has been reborn at least three times since then. His powers have changed.

    In that timespan, Hulk has had several incarnations. The Green Scar operated at a different level than previous hulks.
    That doesn't invalidate anything I said. You are asserting that because 39 years have gone by, so Thor should no longer be Marvel's most powerful? I'm giving a rough outline as to why he is where he currently is on the power scale. You seem to be asserting that Thor has evolved to where he is and that is okay. Good for you. I disagree. I would love to see the Thor character realize his full potential. Why do you have such a problem with that?

    Let me rephrase that: I don't really care why you take issue with what I'm saying. I've indicated why the character is where he is, as supported by your comments above. I think it's sad to see DC support Superman as their top dog all these years (who first appeared in 1938, THAT was 66 years ago)...and he REALLY is not their most powerful character (characters like Dr Fate, Wally West and Martian Manhunter come to mind...) while Marvel has absolutely no care or concern about what Stan originally intended for the character. You think the character should evolve? Good for you. I don't.
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    "You said clear!". "I said it looks clear.". "Well how's it look now?".
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