MERGE: Thor's Depowering: Not a Powerhouse Anymore

[Ptrvc]

I suppose it just comes down to preferences. I almost think DeFalco gave the nod to make Hulk stronger than because having Thor be stronger or even equal to Hulk in strength...kind of makes the Hulk irrelevant? I have actually heard other Thor fans say the same. But honestly, I don't care too much about that controversy. What bothers me most is Marvel's lack of committment and loyalty to what is (was?) their most powerful superhero (or at least intended by Stan Lee to be that way). DC even punks characters in their own comic universe to Superman (i.e., Martian Manhunter) who should smoke Supes every time. It's a joke.

Thing people keep forgetting is that when Thor was created to be stronger than the Hulk, Hulk wasn't nearly as strong as he is now, and I'm not even talking about the Pak stuff. I'm pretty sure they didn't even establish the angrier/stronger until after Thor was created, not to mention the Savage Hulk having a higher base strength than the previous gray personality, and the healing that came later. Basically, Hulk has gotten a lot more powerful since Thor was created to be top dog.

Edit: Any talk of Hulk having a max anger/strength is silly. Marvel, has stated both through narration and other characters plenty of times that Hulk's potential strength is limitless. You can say real people have a limit on their anger, but real people don't change into green rage monsters.

[thirdfalcon]

I suppose it just comes down to preferences. I almost think DeFalco gave the nod to make Hulk stronger than because having Thor be stronger or even equal to Hulk in strength...kind of makes the Hulk irrelevant? I have actually heard other Thor fans say the same. But honestly, I don't care too much about that controversy. What bothers me most is Marvel's lack of committment and loyalty to what is (was?) their most powerful superhero (or at least intended by Stan Lee to be that way). DC even punks characters in their own comic universe to Superman (i.e., Martian Manhunter) who should smoke Supes every time. It's a joke.

I really don't want anyone in the MU to be like Superman. Imo Superman is not only really boring but makes other characters less interesting and their Universe more boring.

If Marvel were to put Thor on a pedestal like DC does with Superman, the only people that would like it would be Thor fans

[jpbl1976]

The very existence of this thread by me is not because I'm hyper-sensitive at all as I have watched for years alot of bad things happen to Thor and have always been in the camp that any hero shouldn't win all the time. I just thought this should be addressed.

As I quoted in my original post Walt's run had Thor lose LOTS of times which I never had a problem with because he didn't lose like an idiot.

Over the last few years he's just been the Wonder-Thor of the MU and hasn't really had any consistant and clear-cut victories in any battles I remember recently, with the possible exception of his Chaos War mini.

Thor's best showings in his own book ?
I can't remember Thor having any decent showings in his own book for a few years.

Fraction's Thor & Odin vs SS & Galactus was one of the most biggest anticipated fights in comic history. People had been literally waiting decades for Odin and Galactus to " butt heads " . It's a shame that Fraction too that thought too literally and actually made them do JUST that in their fight: what a massive letdown.
The Thor/SS fight was boring as f**k: I throw Mjolnir, you blast me with energy and my board hits you from behind, rinse & repeat.
What a huge sack of shite that turned out to be.
The World Eaters arc was just as bad with Thor turning into a Mud Giant to fight the enemy in one issue who were just canon fodder.

Even in JMS's run he didn't have any huge fights except for the Bor one, which was great as that was built up over time.

I think Gillen did a couple of decent ones with the Doom story and Mephisto one. But Thor hasn't really rocked his own world for fights since the relaunch, and it's now five years on, what does that tell you ?

... You've just summarized why I hated Matt Fraction's run. It's Marvel editorial's fault for putting such an insipid writer onto to one of their Franchise heroes.

Also, I don't agree with people who say Thor was weakened in the film. He held his own against the Hulk just fine -- it's not like he got wiped and their fight on the helicarrier seemed to have ended in stalemate. To my mind, they're going through a phase of introducing and building up the characters. I've no doubt Thor will have his "Legolas moments" in the upcoming films.

[DiceRoll]

... You've just summarized why I hated Matt Fraction's run. It's Marvel editorial's fault for putting such an insipid writer onto to one of their Franchise heroes.

Also, I don't agree with people who say Thor was weakened in the film. He held his own against the Hulk just fine -- it's not like he got wiped and their fight on the helicarrier seemed to have ended in stalemate. To my mind, they're going through a phase of introducing and building up the characters. I've no doubt Thor will have his "Legolas moments" in the upcoming films.

"Legolas moment?"

[HaveAtThee]

What I'm starting to tire of is the fact that everything has to be defined in conflict. I do wholeheartedly agree that Thor has been misrepresented as a true powerhouse for the last couple of years (or more), but what could be a more disturbing element is the deterioration of Thor the person. He's been regressing slowly but surely into a brutish, Viking thug who rarely contemplates anything without the desire to physically confront someone. Thor's true power needs to be tested by worthwhile villains. However his psyche and bravery also need to be tested as well. This is why Aaron's premise of making present Thor a "detective" of sorts is interesting. Perhaps it will reestablish the wiser more noble deity we all grew up reading.

[NeonZ]

I really don't want anyone in the MU to be like Superman. Imo Superman is not only really boring but makes other characters less interesting and their Universe more boring.

If Marvel were to put Thor on a pedestal like DC does with Superman, the only people that would like it would be Thor fans

Superman is outdone by other superheroes in DC itself though several times, like Flash's "Those were for charity, Clark" moment, or when he was turned into a zombie during Blackest Night. Superman just is rarely portrayed on the level of a brutish thug like Marvel has been doing with Thor recently.

[thirdfalcon]

Superman is outdone by other superheroes in DC itself though several times, like Flash's "Those were for charity, Clark" moment, or when he was turned into a zombie during Blackest Night. Superman just is rarely portrayed on the level of a brutish thug like Marvel has been doing with Thor recently.

He has his low moments sure but nothing is potrayed as consistently powerful more Superman except for Celestial things like Anti-Moniter or the like.

I don't really accept that Thor has been potrayed as a brutish thug either. He's shown character in being willing to try and stand up to people that he can't possibly win against, he's just outclassed .

[Malevolent1]

Thing people keep forgetting is that when Thor was created to be stronger than the Hulk, Hulk wasn't nearly as strong as he is now, and I'm not even talking about the Pak stuff. I'm pretty sure they didn't even establish the angrier/stronger until after Thor was created, not to mention the Savage Hulk having a higher base strength than the previous gray personality, and the healing that came later. Basically, Hulk has gotten a lot more powerful since Thor was created to be top dog.

Edit: Any talk of Hulk having a max anger/strength is silly. Marvel, has stated both through narration and other characters plenty of times that Hulk's potential strength is limitless. You can say real people have a limit on their anger, but real people don't change into green rage monsters.

Disagree. In Defenders #10, that was SAVAGE Hulk that Thor fought. Yes, his ability to get stronger as he got angrier came later, but by the time Defenders #10 came out, that was a foregone conclusion. And I also disagree about Hulk's strength being limitless. Those terms, I have always found to be subjective. For example, the Silver Surfer's strength, like the Hulk, is stated as having the potential for limitless strength. Just like the Hulk. But when have we ever seen that? And do you ever really thing we will see a comic pitting Hulk against, say, Galactus? I seriously doubt it. Trust me, Hulk has a ceiling. That ceiling may well be over what Thor can do now, but that is largely to the stylings of Tom DeFalco.

[wayfarejourneyman]

Disagree. In Defenders #10, that was SAVAGE Hulk that Thor fought. Yes, his ability to get stronger as he got angrier came later, but by the time Defenders #10 came out, that was a foregone conclusion. And I also disagree about Hulk's strength being limitless. Those terms, I have always found to be subjective. For example, the Silver Surfer's strength, like the Hulk, is stated as having the potential for limitless strength. Just like the Hulk. But when have we ever seen that? And do you ever really thing we will see a comic pitting Hulk against, say, Galactus? I seriously doubt it. Trust me, Hulk has a ceiling. That ceiling may well be over what Thor can do now, but that is largely to the stylings of Tom DeFalco.

We get it, you disagree with established canon.

But, just for the record, vast amounts of superhuman strength w/o the leverage to actually move a thing would just look like worth shattering stomping.

Look, instead of trying to selectively toss the character's history out the window, why not appreciate his weaknesses as much as his strengths? Hulk can be manipulated. He can be dominated. He lacks ways to deal with flying opponents. He can be energy drained. He can be dimension dumped.

Literally, the only things he has on Thor are Strength and Durability. Why not give him that and focus on Thor's billion other powers that make him a more versatile hero?

[davew128]

Literally, the only things he has on Thor are Strength and Durability.

The strength is debateable (still) and even the durability....up until Hulk mysteriously developed a healing factor was decidely Thor.

[wayfarejourneyman]

The strength is debateable (still) and even the durability....up until Hulk mysteriously developed a healing factor was decidely Thor.

What do you mean, mysteriously? He's had one since the early 90s, at least.

I am not saying Thor doesn't have planet-busting feats, just that i've never seen them. I have seen that from Hulk.

[jpbl1976]

"Legolas moment?"

In the LoTR films, there's always a segment during the fights when Legolas goes on a solo rampage where he kicks the behinds of the monsters they're facing and you're left thinking "whoa, that's awesome!" I want Thor to have those moments again. Under the hands of Bendis/Fraction, the only one who's been getting his butt kicked is Thor.

[jpbl1976]

What I'm starting to tire of is the fact that everything has to be defined in conflict. I do wholeheartedly agree that Thor has been misrepresented as a true powerhouse for the last couple of years (or more), but what could be a more disturbing element is the deterioration of Thor the person. He's been regressing slowly but surely into a brutish, Viking thug who rarely contemplates anything without the desire to physically confront someone. Thor's true power needs to be tested by worthwhile villains. However his psyche and bravery also need to be tested as well. This is why Aaron's premise of making present Thor a "detective" of sorts is interesting. Perhaps it will reestablish the wiser more noble deity we all grew up reading.

This is Fraction's fault. Even Bendis didn't write Thor that poorly. Fraction could never get Thor's diction correct and made him out to be some dullard, which is contrary to the "wise warrior" that Simonson had. I think Fraction was trying to find an "angle" and he decided to make Thor more like the lumbering viking dolts who raided the European coasts back in the day. Of course, anyone familiar with Fraction's writing knows that he has a serious case of overreach -- his concepts aren't bad per se -- he's just not talented enough to pull it off. He wants to be Grant Morrison only he's nowhere near that level of talent.

To use a sports analogy, he's like one of the numerous Michael Jordan-wannabes through the years -- they copy his moves but can't deliver. Bendis' case was different -- when he was writing Thor on Avengers, he was like a good player playing out of position.

It's not a coincidence that a lot of the Thor "jobbing" happened during those two guys' runs on Avengers and Thor -- they weren't suited for Thor and should not have been given the license by editorial to write him as they pleased. I mean, when you think about it, the only time that Thor seemed to get the respect he deserved (in terms of portraying Thor's nobility and power) was when Gillen was writing him -- Hickman did the same thing, albeit with Ultimate Thor.

Man... just thinking of Fraction's stupid run just makes me angry. Thank Odin Fraction is gone from Thor...

[Magenera]

Magneto has been a Thor villain, a lesser powered Juggernaut kicked Thors ass. Namor has knocked the Hulk spark out.Search the Thor vs Magik thread in here to see how a lot of people think she can actually kill Thor by teleporting his head off and such, Lets just see what Magik can do:

Defeated Belasco, one of those enemies capable of taking on the whole X-Men and winning, by herself.
Destroyed the Demon Bear.
Outsmarted the Shadow King, leading to his defeat.
Defeated the Enchantress.
Took on Thor, Cap, and Black Knight at once and had the upper hand.
Stole Cap's shield.
Scared Legion into submission........twice.
Ended the invasion part of Inferno.
Killed Belasco.
Brought about the destruction of the Elder Gods
or.....
http://www.comicvine.com/forums/batt...on-run/646757/

Yes, the weaknesses are glaringly apparent.

What you mean i want my hero to singularly struggle against the Celestials? That what he did do, FACT. What you want from me?



You guy need to learn to read. I have given numerous examples of human guys like Doom and Kang and others who can be a real threat to Thor. atthe moment Red Skull is the Uncanny Avengers villain and you know he wont be going toe to toe with Thor, he will have his henchmen, okay? He has RESOURCES that can threaten Thor, he does not have to be God Almighty like some of you think i want Avengers villains to be just because you cant read properly. You are talking crap about 'Thor level villains running around'. Don't make up garbage i was supposed to have said. And keep your 'absolutes' because no one is talking about that unless its the voices in your heads.

And like Thor none of that shit will matter because it would be forgotten and she will be downplayed. Most of Marvel powerful characters get's downplayed to show up some popular guy. The reason why X-Fans was so happy with Rachel showing was because she was fucking forgotten that she was one of the most powerful X-Men. Which was made even more hilarious that Aaron has no idea why people like that issue. Cable is going to be downplayed, and he can fight fucking Silver Surfer. I don't like the worf-effect because that shit gets played to the point that the character becomes a joke. Oh look Thor got his ass handed to him again. Better let Cap, or Wolverine, or FUCKING SPIDERMAN save his ass. So pretty much Thor who was the powerhouse will now be some guy who gets his ass kick every time a villain shows up. Hell its going to happen to him in Uncanny Avengers, Red Skull going to mind control him despite the fact that he should have protection to that shit.

[DiceRoll]

And like Thor none of that shit will matter because it would be forgotten and she will be downplayed. Most of Marvel powerful characters get's downplayed to show up some popular guy. The reason why X-Fans was so happy with Rachel showing was because she was fucking forgotten that she was one of the most powerful X-Men. Which was made even more hilarious that Aaron has no idea why people like that issue. Cable is going to be downplayed, and he can fight fucking Silver Surfer. I don't like the worf-effect because that shit gets played to the point that the character becomes a joke. Oh look Thor got his ass handed to him again. Better let Cap, or Wolverine, or FUCKING SPIDERMAN save his ass. So pretty much Thor who was the powerhouse will now be some guy who gets his ass kick every time a villain shows up. Hell its going to happen to him in Uncanny Avengers, Red Skull going to mind control him despite the fact that he should have protection to that shit.

The weird part for me is that every time he loses people just go, "Well if it were anyone else he'd be dead" and make all kinds of justifications, and then watch Steve, Logan or Pete completely show him up. Is this just accepted now?