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  1. #61
    evil maybe, genius no stk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    And for decades, Catwoman was a Bat-villain.
    And I like her as a villain.

    Quote Originally Posted by An Ear In The Fireplace View Post
    Given how much pain and suffering I and others have suffered because of thievery, I think it's insensitive to diminish its effects which are real and lasting and can do great harm.
    seriously.

  2. #62
    The Alpha and The Omega Godlike13's Avatar
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    Catwoman should never be classified as anything. She's an enigma...

  3. #63
    Blue Boba ABH-1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stk View Post
    And I like her as a villain.
    So, she shouldn't have her own book then? She should just go back to being a "villain" in one of Batman's books?
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  4. #64
    Senior Member Castel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stk View Post
    And this is what I'm talking about. Stealing isn't considered evil now?
    Of course no. Reprehensible behavior yes, worth some time in jail definitely but "evil" ?

    Gee, guess i have to crucify my little cousin who stole some candies then. That little son of Satan !!

  5. #65

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    Of course stealing is evil. I don't see why one would even question that. Most of the evil in the world arises from theft in one form or another.

  6. #66
    evil maybe, genius no stk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namtab View Post
    So, she shouldn't have her own book then? She should just go back to being a "villain" in one of Batman's books?
    This is what I don't get. If she is going to have her own book, she needs to be some pseudo-good guy like they've been portraying her? Why? Why can't she be a villain and head up her own book? It is possible to have a villain protagonist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castel View Post
    Of course no. Reprehensible behavior yes, worth some time in jail definitely but "evil" ?

    Gee, guess i have to crucify my little cousin who stole some candies then. That little son of Satan !!
    Congratulations on not being able to perceive levels.

  7. #67
    Blue Boba ABH-1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stk View Post
    This is what I don't get. If she is going to have her own book, she needs to be some pseudo-good guy like they've been portraying her? Why? Why can't she be a villain and head up her own book? It is possible to have a villain protagonist.
    No, but now I see the issue. I think she should always be a thief, first and foremost, however, that makes her an Anti-Hero, because she is the hero/protagonist in the story, even if she's doing "evil/criminal" deeds. The antagonists, in her book, are the actual villains to her anti-hero/hero/protagonist.

    So, I suppose, if she's being bad in Batman's book, then she's a villain, but when she's starring in her book, she's and anti-hero.
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  8. #68
    evil maybe, genius no stk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namtab View Post
    No, but now I see the issue. I think she should always be a thief, first and foremost, however, that makes her an Anti-Hero, because she is the hero/protagonist in the story, even if she's doing "evil/criminal" deeds. The antagonists, in her book, are the actual villains to her anti-hero/hero/protagonist.
    That doesn't track, because if the antagonist of a Catwoman story is some altruistic and completely moral interpol inspector, he wouldn't be a villain. Even though 'villain' and 'antagonist' are used by some to be somewhat interchangeable, the word "villain" still carries with it an element of "bad guy".

  9. #69
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namtab View Post
    No, but now I see the issue. I think she should always be a thief, first and foremost, however, that makes her an Anti-Hero, because she is the hero/protagonist in the story, even if she's doing "evil/criminal" deeds. The antagonists, in her book, are the actual villains to her anti-hero/hero/protagonist.

    So, I suppose, if she's being bad in Batman's book, then she's a villain, but when she's starring in her book, she's and anti-hero.
    You have some things mixed up.
    The protagonist of a book is the main character. The antagonist is his/her main opponent. These are not terms that are in any way at all defined by being good guys or bad guys.

    A complete villain who murders heroes and innocents alike, works together with other villains, but who stars in his own book, is still the protagonist of that book. And in such a book, Batman would be an antagonist.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  10. #70
    Blue Boba ABH-1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stk View Post
    That doesn't track, because if the antagonist of a Catwoman story is some altruistic and completely moral interpol inspector, he wouldn't be a villain. Even though 'villain' and 'antagonist' are used by some to be somewhat interchangeable, the word "villain" still carries with it an element of "bad guy".
    Maybe, but when has that happened? Even in books where she is primarily a thief, isn't she almost always stealing from "badder" badguys?

    But whatever, if you think she should be nothing more than a cat-burglar; stealing all-day, everyday, then I agree with you. You can call that character a villain, but I'll stick to anti-hero, since the definition fits.
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  11. #71
    Blue Boba ABH-1979's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    You have some things mixed up.
    The protagonist of a book is the main character. The antagonist is his/her main opponent. These are not terms that are in any way at all defined by being good guys or bad guys.

    A complete villain who murders heroes and innocents alike, works together with other villains, but who stars in his own book, is still the protagonist of that book. And in such a book, Batman would be an antagonist.
    Yes, I know, which is why I said she is the anti-hero, (in her book) because she is the protagonist. She can be viewed as a villain in Batman's book, since he's the hero of his story, if she is the antagonist.
    Last edited by ABH-1979; 11-12-2012 at 12:30 PM.
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  12. #72
    evil maybe, genius no stk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namtab View Post
    Maybe, but when has that happened? Even in books where she is primarily a thief, isn't she almost always stealing from "badder" badguys?
    And that is my problem. She isn't allowed to be a villain. She isn't allowed to be a true "bad guy", which would be interesting as hell to read about. The way DC has been using the character, her villainy always has to be mitigated by some inner good. She's basically stealing to make the world a better place or something. To clean up Gotham. To help some orphans. To take down super-villains.

    Why?

    Why does it have to be this way? It's so cliched and boring.

  13. #73
    Blue Boba ABH-1979's Avatar
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    Fair enough. A book where she steals from museums and gives the cops and heroes the slip, every time, would be awesome. I want her to steal and keep it all for herself. Again, "World's Greatest Cat-Burglar."
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  14. #74
    Senior Member Castel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stk View Post
    Congratulations on not being able to perceive levels.
    That's mighty rich from someone who labels all person who have stolen something, which by the way is an act we have all committed at least once in our life, "evil".

    Stealing is wrong. Stealing is illegal. But putting it at the same level as rape and murder, as you did, is plain preposterous.

    What's the deal with you ? Some bully stole your lollipops when you were a kid ?
    Last edited by Castel; 11-12-2012 at 01:05 PM.

  15. #75
    evil maybe, genius no stk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castel View Post
    That's mighty rich from someone who labels all person who have stolen something, which by the way is an act we have all committed at least once in our life, "evil".
    And that is not what I'm saying, thus my response. But thanks again for the histrionics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Castel View Post
    Stealing is wrong. Stealing is illegal. But putting it at the same level as rape and murder, as you did, is plain preposterous.
    Annnnnd nice edit. Another thing I never did. So I'm not sure why you felt the need to add that in there.
    Last edited by stk; 11-12-2012 at 01:31 PM.

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