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  1. #1
    Mild-Mannered Reporter
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    Default When Words Collide - Oct 8, 2012

    Tim reunites with his Splash Page podcast partner and former CBR reviewer Chad Nevett to discuss the "Avengers vs. X-Men" event and where it ranks compared to Marvel crossovers of the past.


    Full article here.

  2. #2
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    Great discussion.

    I couldn't go forward with this event after the first issue set up a completely stupid premise, that two "heroes" could not reasonably talk out a situation that affected the entire world. I kept up with the event via Mr. Nevett's excellent blog posts.

    The writers want us to take their work seriously, to look at this story as "art," but it's impossible to do that. This was as safe as safe could be. The death didn't even resonate like they hoped. Most comic related commentary and forum goers called it months before and yawned afterwards. Between editorial oversight and lack of editorial oversight, Marvel and DC both are putting out bland crap (there are exceptions of course). It was AvX that got me to dump all my Marvel books. I was told by writers, by Marvel editorial, by Dan Buckley in interviews, that this would be game changing, that this would matter. They didn't even get the first issue right.

    Marvel should have learned that too many cooks spoil the broth. Yes they had a great stable of artists to put on the book, but aside from the consistency of JRJR on the opening issues, Coipel and Kubert had a weird rotation that hampered the flow of the story.

  3. #3
    Junior Member Skute's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jazz41 View Post
    Great discussion.

    I couldn't go forward with this event after the first issue set up a completely stupid premise, that two "heroes" could not reasonably talk out a situation that affected the entire world. I kept up with the event via Mr. Nevett's excellent blog posts.

    The writers want us to take their work seriously, to look at this story as "art," but it's impossible to do that. This was as safe as safe could be. The death didn't even resonate like they hoped. Most comic related commentary and forum goers called it months before and yawned afterwards. Between editorial oversight and lack of editorial oversight, Marvel and DC both are putting out bland crap (there are exceptions of course). It was AvX that got me to dump all my Marvel books. I was told by writers, by Marvel editorial, by Dan Buckley in interviews, that this would be game changing, that this would matter. They didn't even get the first issue right.

    Marvel should have learned that too many cooks spoil the broth. Yes they had a great stable of artists to put on the book, but aside from the consistency of JRJR on the opening issues, Coipel and Kubert had a weird rotation that hampered the flow of the story.
    I feel ya, man. The whole event kinda failed in my eyes and does make me want to drop mavel all together.( The only thing stoppping me is my love for Immonen.) From them not being able to simply talk about it to the avengers constantly trying to assult the X-men for literally no reason. It just didn't really make any kind of sense. It was crazy frustrating.

  4. #4
    A guy who loves comics Sam Robards, Comic Fan's Avatar
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    As far as best overall Marvel events go, you really can't come close to Infinity Gauntlet. You just can't.

    In terms of Marvel-wide events of the last decade (I'm not counting property-wide events like Messiah CompleX in this category as it only encompassed the X-titles), I have to say that House of M is my favorite, followed by World War Hulk and then Avengers vs. X-Men. The rest were too "meh" to name.

    AvX did seem to suffer from too many cooks, so to speak. It seemed like they knew the big picture endgame (spoilers: the mutant gene is reactivated), but they were kinda mum on the specifics. So each writer seemed to go where they thought it should, regardless of whether or not it jive with what came earlier.

    Still, I found it enjoyable enough and I like where the Marvel U is going with Marvel NOW! So I don't have too much to complain about.

  5. #5
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    I enjoyed Infinity Gauntlet, but it's nowhere near the best Marvel event ever. It was a Thanos/Warlock wankfest... which is basically all Starlin knew how to write at that point. It also produced a whole series of formulaic "events" that followed. I was a big fan of the old Warlock series, and Thanos was awesome in those stories, but the whole Infinity trilogy wore me out on both characters forever.

    And Cyclops was NOT 100% right. His path would have led to disaster, and anyone who hasn't spent the last few years inspecting his prostate would realize that. I am happy that mutants have been restored... at the expense of untold billions of living beings who just happened to be in the path of the Phoenix.

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    Modus omnibus in rebus Roquefort Raider's Avatar
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    Infinity Gauntlet was uninspired and quite trite compared to the brilliant ending to the Warlock saga that Starlin himself had cooked up in Avengers annual 7 and Marvel two-in-one 2. I understand that kids would have liked it, though. Plenty of characters and action.

    Good discussion between Tim and Chris, and a reasonable analysis of the dichotomy between what the story actually showed and what Editorial wanted it to show. Despite all protests to the contrary, Cyclops comes out as the tragic hero of this tale, while the Avengs are little more than over-reacting, borderline fascistic thugs (especially Cap, who also acts all self-righteous). I hope the ramifications of the story will be explored in depth in the coming months and not go the simplistic way of showing Summers trying to atone for his "misdeeds" so that he can finally be worthy of joining the worthy ranks of the Avengers (alongside murderers like Wolverine, pricks like Captain America and mentally imbalanced people like Wanda).

    If Marvel wants its events to matter, I think the echoes of this story and those of schisma should be felt for months to come. If readers are divided on how to nteroret these events, how could the characters not feel the same way?
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  7. #7

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    While I don't think anyone would deny that Avengers v. X-Men was overlong, I did enjoy it. It's not something I can see myself wanting to re-read, but rather remembering moments that I liked. I also really liked a lot of what Gillen did with the event in Uncanny; if nothing else, Colossus and Magik's little convo that lead to mutually perceived insanity was a moment that will stay with me. In general, I have to say that I think that now, with the event over, the fact that people are still able to argue over who the villain was in the piece is a fairly good accomplishment (though I imagine that the deCaptors probably have more to say and a stronger case to make)

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    Was Avengers vs. X-Men a good story? I guess, but it was a horrible Avengers vs. X-Men story. Marvel characters have decades worth of character development behind them and in the last several years all of that gets thrown out the window. Characters are made to serve the story rather than the story serving the characters. People act wildly out of character. I barely recognized most of the major players in this and many of Marvel's recent events. If it was not for identifying costumes I would have had no idea who these characters were because they have strayed so far. The only redeeming quality I can really find is that I read someone else's copies and did not spend my own cash.

    Why such good writer write such crappy fanfic is beyond me. This is why I buy no Marvel titles and only five from DC. Thankfully Image and others have stepped up to put out quality stuff.
    Last edited by mmurphy1968; 10-08-2012 at 05:33 PM.

  9. #9
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    Great discussion. A couple of comments: I completely agree with the failure of this series in making mutants/the Earth the center of the MU. To me. one of the strengths of the MU (in contrast to DC) has been that Earth is just one planet among many (well, a bit more important than most) and that there are truly colossal forces out there in the universe which have little to do with Earth. As the commentator said, the idea that a cosmic force like the Phoenix would take some kind of special interest in this one race of people on this one world really makes the MU a small, parochial place. And, as someone pointed out above, the Phoenix was killing billions of people on its dash across the universe to get to Earth to restore mutants. Was that "worth it"? It hardly seems so.

    I, too, found "The Infinity Gauntlet" series to be really lacking. It my view, it was bad Starlin and could not begin to compare to his classic Warlock stuff. In part, it was weak simply because it made Thanos so invincible. But it also had the effect of greatly reducing the scope and complexity of the MU, when all of the universe' great powers could be beaten by one maniac with a glove. Again, it had the effect of shrinking and demystifying the MU.

    AvX was, in general, a really, really bad story. I don't agree that Cyclops was right - he was incredibly irresponsible, given the real danger that the Phoenix truly posed. But, as noted in the story, there were ways to resolve the argument between Cap and Cyclops without resorting to force.

    I agree that the whole "the Avengers didn't do anything to help us" idea is lame because it was a position mandated by editorial. It never made any kind of sense that the Avengers did not turn up to help the X-Men and mutants during their various atrocities and to make it an issue now is grossly unfair to the characters and simply points out an unsustainable and illogical part of the MU.

  10. #10
    Assimilation or Death Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    I agree with most of the main points, a well-thought article.

    And yes, Infinity Gauntlet is the best Marvel line-wide crossover ever. Although the best overall is the Mutant Massacre, a X-men one (well, technically, it was a Marvel one, since Daredevil had a few tie-ins, but you know what I mean).

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaric Rivad View Post
    And Cyclops was NOT 100% right. His path would have led to disaster, and anyone who hasn't spent the last few years inspecting his prostate would realize that.
    Cyclops said: the Phoenix is not coming to destroy the Earth, and Hope can control it and restore mutantkind. And in the end...the Phoenix was not coming to destroy the Earth, Hope could control it, and restore mutantkind.

    Yeah, he clearly was wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by ShaunN View Post

    AvX was, in general, a really, really bad story. I don't agree that Cyclops was right - he was incredibly irresponsible, given the real danger that the Phoenix truly posed.
    .
    But his point was there was no danger if was left alone, and he was right. The only times it went wrong it was when people were trying to mess with it- it's the Hellfire Club in the Dark Phoenix Saga and the Avengers is AvX. In the (awful) Secret Avengers tie in, it's also revealed that the Kree messed with it as well, making it stray from it's path to Earth.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega Alpha View Post
    And in the end...the Phoenix was not coming to destroy the Earth, Hope could control it, and restore mutantkind.

    Yeah, he clearly was wrong.
    Hope wasn't ready for the Phoenix Force on the moon, and she could only control it after her training with Iron Fist, Lei Kung the Thunderer and finally the Scarlet Witch's help.

    Ironically without the Avengers interference, there's little chance she would have controlled it.

    Cyke was wrong.

  12. #12
    HopeistheGreatestofEvils Atomiq's Avatar
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    Nevermind, Not having this discussion.
    Last edited by Atomiq; 10-09-2012 at 02:22 AM.

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    As for why the Phoenix would rush from the "other side of the galaxy" to address the reduction of mutants, I'd point to Uncanny X-Men Annual #11.

    Recall in that story Wolverine made a choice that ensured humanity/ mutanity were worthy to progress to the next stage in galactic evolution.

    Statues around the outside of the Citadel of Ultimate Light where his and the rest of the X-Men team at the time's quest occurred within, showed that other galactic races had tried and failed, including the Kree providing a sneaky explanation for their evolutionary stagnation which the Supreme Intelligence had been trying to undo for millennia.

  14. #14
    Assimilation or Death Omega Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by okpanic View Post
    Hope wasn't ready for the Phoenix Force on the moon, and she could only control it after her training with Iron Fist, Lei Kung the Thunderer and finally the Scarlet Witch's help.

    Ironically without the Avengers interference, there's little chance she would have controlled it.

    Cyke was wrong.
    The Iron Fist bullshit is pretty much the textbook definition of Deus Ex Machina.

    AND the fact that Hope was ready after the training is not proof she wasn't ready before. After all, she was trained since she was a little girl, although Marvel pretended not to know that. The Avengers didn't had any plan whatsoever, so much that they ended up taking Cyclops' and using it.
    That's right! Al Gore invented the internet, let's all go kick his ass!

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  15. #15
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    Was World War Hiulk a line-wide event? Annihilation was not line wide, but I would say that was much better than any of the events you listed.

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