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  1. #46
    Senior Member Huthaifa's Avatar
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    I think the Celts newfound depth makes up for their age. You can limit guys to 20 effective minutes per game.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Huthaifa View Post
    I think the Celts newfound depth makes up for their age. You can limit guys to 20 effective minutes per game.
    Not really, because their oldest guys (Garnett and Pierce) are still far and away their best players at their positions. They still need them to play big minutes to have any chance of winning.

  3. #48
    Elder Member jesse_custer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    Allen was an underrated defender.
    I agree (and I'm trying to see where I said he couldn't defend), but he's not better than Bradley or Lee. That's not even considering his decreased mobility due to his ankle.

    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    And while Terry is somewhat better off the dribble than Allen, (A) he's not nearly the clutch shooter/scorer that Allen had been for the Celtics and (B) the system they ran, with Rondo dominating the ball, was geared much more towards Allen's catch and shoot game than Terry's off-the-dribble/pick-n-roll game. He also, throughout his career, has been much more prone to run hot-and-cold than Allen.
    (A) Terry showed his clutch gene, if you will, at the Finals.

    (B) Yes, but as I pointed out, the Celtics offense would stall because of elements like this. After Rondo passes to Terry, Terry can either shoot or run around and make a better play. The Celtics need this unpredictability, not to mention a proven bench scorer who is healthy (Allen was missing free throws at the playoffs last year - he's not the same).

    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    I guess we listen to different people then.
    For what it's worth, I have heard that Green performed well during the preseason.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesse_custer View Post
    I agree (and I'm trying to see where I said he couldn't defend), but he's not better than Bradley or Lee. That's not even considering his decreased mobility due to his ankle.
    While you're looking let me know when you find where I said you said that. And ankle injuries heal.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse_custer View Post
    (A) Terry showed his clutch gene, if you will, at the Finals.
    He was great in the Finals. But over the course of his career he has not shown himself to be the kind of clutch player that Allen has. And it's a fair and open question to ask how much the presence of Dirk Nowitzki as a focus of opposing defenses opened things up for Terry and how effective he'll be without that.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse_custer View Post
    (B) Yes, but as I pointed out, the Celtics offense would stall because of elements like this. After Rondo passes to Terry, Terry can either shoot or run around and make a better play. The Celtics need this unpredictability, not to mention a proven bench scorer who is healthy (Allen was missing free throws at the playoffs last year - he's not the same).
    Yes you did point that out. But you pointing that out doesn't necessarily make it true or accurate. It's just one opinion. Another one (not necessarily anymore true or accurate but an equally valid one nonetheless) is that changing a scheme that (A) has proven highly effective over a number of years and (B) results in the ball being taken out of the hands of the team's best player--a player who has not been proven to operate particularly well without the ball--is a questionable strategy.


    Quote Originally Posted by jesse_custer View Post
    For what it's worth, I have heard that Green performed well during the preseason.
    I think we both know that's not worth much of anything.

  5. #50
    Elder Member jesse_custer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    While you're looking let me know when you find where I said you said that.
    You said you disagreed and immediately brought up Allen's defense. Perhaps you should clarify. Let's start with this: is Allen a better defender than Bradley? Than Lee?

    Just to make things clear, I said Bradley and Lee are better than Allen on defense. So if you're going to disagree, that's what you're disagreeing with, as you and I both believe he's a decent defender.

    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    He was great in the Finals. But over the course of his career he has not shown himself to be the kind of clutch player that Allen has. And it's a fair and open question to ask how much the presence of Dirk Nowitzki as a focus of opposing defenses opened things up for Terry and how effective he'll be without that.
    Allen's shooting was off last year. Rondo, Pierce, and Garnett took care of things last year, and Terry seems very confident he can add something to the team. I trust him more than the Ray Allen who was shooting worse than Rondo at the free throw line in last year's playoffs.

    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    Yes you did point that out. But you pointing that out doesn't necessarily make it true or accurate. It's just one opinion. Another one (not necessarily anymore true or accurate but an equally valid one nonetheless) is that changing a scheme that (A) has proven highly effective over a number of years and (B) results in the ball being taken out of the hands of the team's best player--a player who has not been proven to operate particularly well without the ball--is a questionable strategy.
    (B) is just flatout wrong. Rondo's going to be controlling the ball the majority of the time as he always does. It's not like Pierce or someone else never runs with the ball while Rondo's on the court.
    Last edited by jesse_custer; 10-23-2012 at 11:50 AM.

  6. #51
    Not my job to care Hiromi's Avatar
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    Prediction time

    East
    Atlantic - Boston
    Central - Chicago
    Southeast - Miami
    Wildcards(in no order) - Indiana, Brooklyn, New York, Philly, Washington as my sleeper

    Miami wins the East

    West
    Northwest - OKC
    Pacific - LA Clippers
    Southwest - San Antonio
    Wildcards - LA Lakers, Denver, Memphis, Utah, New Orleans as my sleeper

    OKC wins the West again

    Miami wins the rematch


    MVP - Lebron
    DPoY - Dwight if he stays healthy
    RotY - A. Davis
    6th MotY - Harden

    So basically more of last year, though I freely admit my west picks are somewhat shaky given I believe the West has four teams capable of winning it(both LA teams, OKC, and Denver). I fully believe no one in the East is capable of stopping Miami at this point.
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by jesse_custer View Post
    You said you disagreed and immediately brought up Allen's defense. Perhaps you should clarify. Let's start with this: is Allen a better defender than Bradley? Than Lee?

    Just to make things clear, I said Bradley and Lee are better than Allen on defense. So if you're going to disagree, that's what you're disagreeing with, as you and I both believe he's a decent defender.
    Your original comment came across as an implied criticism of Allen's defense. I replied by saying he was an underrated defender. Honestly, I fail to see what's unclear about that. It's a simple statement of opinion, not a manifesto. And I really fail to see how saying it could somehow be interpreted as my claiming you said Allen doesn't defend. But, whatever. Movin' on.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse_custer View Post
    Allen's shooting was off last year. Rondo, Pierce, and Garnett took care of things last year, and Terry seems very confident he can add something to the team. I trust him more than the Ray Allen who was shooting worse than Rondo at the free throw line in last year's playoffs.
    Well, it's nice that Terry has confidence but, really, so what? That has no meaning or bearing on anything. And you keep harping on last postseason, during which it's well know that Allen was injured, to criticize Allen's contributions. Well, last postseason was not and is not the sum total of Allen's career. However, if that's what you want to use as a measuring stick . . . While Allen may well have shot "worse than Rondo at the free throw line in last year's playoffs . . ." he still shot better than Jason Terry. Not sure how or why any of that matters, but you brought it up, so apparently it matters to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by jesse_custer View Post
    (B) is just flatout wrong. Rondo's going to be controlling the ball the majority of the time as he always does. It's not like Pierce or someone else never runs with the ball while Rondo's on the court.
    It's not "flatout wrong" because, once again, what you're refuting isn't what i said. I never said Rondo wouldn't still be controlling the ball, and I certainly never said that no one other than Rondo ever touched the ball. Where did I say that? I said that by replacing Allen--a player whose game is primarily catch and shoot--with Terry, a player who works much more off the dribble--that they'd be taking the ball out of Rondo's hands, which they will for the time that Terry is going one-on-one. Point being, if they're going to invest in more one-on-one play, it makes sense to have it run through their best one-on-one players. Rondo is a better one-on-one player than Terry (for that matter, so is Pierce). They're replacing a player who brought an element of their offense that worked fine for years with one who's not as good at that element and whose best asset is not as good as other players they already have. I don't see that as an automatic net plus. Not saying it can't or won't be, but it's certainly not a lock.

    It's really pretty simple. You said the Celtics "had no questions in the backcourt." All i'm doing is (A) pointing out that they do, in fact, have questions; several of them, actually and (B) detailing what some of them are. Is it possible that the Celtics backcourt will be better now with Terry than it was with Allen? Of course it is. I never said it wouldn't. Is it a given that it will be? Not even close.

    Whenever a team that's had as much success over as long a period as the Celtics have makes as many sweeping, wholesale changes in the offseason as they did this summer, there will, inevitably, be questions going into the season and those questions will not and cannot be answered until they prove--on the floor, when the games count--that those changes were the right ones.

  8. #53
    Elder Member jesse_custer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    Your original comment came across as an implied criticism of Allen's defense.
    My intention was to say that Bradley and Lee are an improvement over Allen in terms of defense. Didn't mean for it to come across as a harsh criticism. Allen's defense is definitely not appreciated as much as it should be, but I think the Celtics have upgraded the defense for his position.

    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    Well, it's nice that Terry has confidence but, really, so what? That has no meaning or bearing on anything. And you keep harping on last postseason, during which it's well know that Allen was injured, to criticize Allen's contributions. Well, last postseason was not and is not the sum total of Allen's career. However, if that's what you want to use as a measuring stick . . . While Allen may well have shot "worse than Rondo at the free throw line in last year's playoffs . . ." he still shot better than Jason Terry. Not sure how or why any of that matters, but you brought it up, so apparently it matters to you.
    I think confidence counts for a good bit. If a player isn't confident, they're not mentally strong enough to go all the way. Allen just seems more tentative now. Plus, the injury isn't just a thing from last year. Allen recently stated he's still having problems. Of course, we'll have to see who performs better for his team, but if I'm gambling, I'm betting that Terry has a better season as a Celtic.

    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    It's not "flatout wrong" because, once again, what you're refuting isn't what i said. I never said Rondo wouldn't still be controlling the ball, and I certainly never said that no one other than Rondo ever touched the ball. Where did I say that? I said that by replacing Allen--a player whose game is primarily catch and shoot--with Terry, a player who works much more off the dribble--that they'd be taking the ball out of Rondo's hands, which they will for the time that Terry is going one-on-one. Point being, if they're going to invest in more one-on-one play, it makes sense to have it run through their best one-on-one players. Rondo is a better one-on-one player than Terry (for that matter, so is Pierce). They're replacing a player who brought an element of their offense that worked fine for years with one who's not as good at that element and whose best asset is not as good as other players they already have. I don't see that as an automatic net plus. Not saying it can't or won't be, but it's certainly not a lock.

    It's really pretty simple. You said the Celtics "had no questions in the backcourt." All i'm doing is (A) pointing out that they do, in fact, have questions; several of them, actually and (B) detailing what some of them are. Is it possible that the Celtics backcourt will be better now with Terry than it was with Allen? Of course it is. I never said it wouldn't. Is it a given that it will be? Not even close.

    Whenever a team that's had as much success over as long a period as the Celtics have makes as many sweeping, wholesale changes in the offseason as they did this summer, there will, inevitably, be questions going into the season and those questions will not and cannot be answered until they prove--on the floor, when the games count--that those changes were the right ones.
    I agree that Rondo and Pierce are better than Terry when it comes to one-on-one play, but the point is that Terry is a better combination of shooting and one-on-one play than Allen. I think that versatility will make their offense less predictable. Let's face it, Rondo will score more this season, but he's still a pure point guard when you get down to it. They need other players to do more things. Plus, Lee is a great shooter. It's not like Allen is the only guy who can hit threes.

  9. #54
    CotM Member Rob Allen's Avatar
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    Nobody better be dissin' cousin Ray, or the whole Allen clan will show up on their doorstep and talk some sense into them.

    Don't think we won't.





    OK, so he's not a first cousin, but still - Allens stick together!
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    Rob Allen

  10. #55
    The King is always around BYC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Allen View Post
    Nobody better be dissin' cousin Ray, or the whole Allen clan will show up on their doorstep and talk some sense into them.

    Don't think we won't.





    OK, so he's not a first cousin, but still - Allens stick together!
    Ray is talking a lot. That's odd coming from him. He must really dislike the situation up in Boston last year. I think he'll have a great season this year, but I think he's really close to being done near the end of this year or after that.

  11. #56
    The King is always around BYC's Avatar
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    Default NBA drops center from All-Star balloting

    http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/85...ll-star-ballot

    Kind of a no-news, but still interesting.

  12. #57
    Elder Member jesse_custer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BYC View Post
    I think he'll have a great season this year, but I think he's really close to being done near the end of this year or after that.
    I'm not so sure about the first part, but I also think his days are numbered.

  13. #58
    Veteran Member streator's Avatar
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    david stern is retiring 2/1/14, adam silver is taking over for him:

    http://nba.si.com/2012/10/25/david-s...2_a0&eref=sihp

    i won't be sad to see stern go but he has been involved with the nba for as long as i've been around. him not being there will be a difference, i guess.
    and i'm counting 1, counting 2, counting 3...

  14. #59
    Not my job to care Hiromi's Avatar
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    Like or hate him the state of the NBA and the game of basketball in general has undeniably improved during Stern's tenure, I think he'll have a good legacy.
    "Tragedy is when I cut my finger. Comedy is when you fall into an open sewer and die." -Mel Brooks
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  15. #60
    Elder Member Vic Vega's Avatar
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    I always liked that Stern really seemed to enjoy getting booed at the NBA Draft.

    However, I don’t see how eliminating pre game player ceremonies and instituting a anti-flopping rule do anything but make the game less fun and even more unfair.

    If Ganobli falls backwards after mild contact on offense, is it a flop? Is it still a flow if Lebron does it? What if a dude who isn’t either a Euro player or Lebron James does it? What if it is something harder than mild contact?

    If Stern and/or his successor are going to work on something, let it be shortening the season to something around 76 games.

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