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  1. #4201
    Veteran Member airdreams's Avatar
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    "So... why do you write these strong female characters?" (Joss Whedon's Equality Now speech)

    Just read it and it reminds me of this dissertation.
    In dog days, all we need is Frost.

  2. #4202
    ButterRum, not Butter Rum ButterRum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldgeller View Post
    Hey, congratulations! That's a really cool looking statue! I hope you enjoy.


    Also, everyone is still playing Avengers Alliance! It was fun. In retrospect, I'm surprised I played as much as I did. I unlocked Emma, but didn't unlock her P5 costume. But I think that's caused I realized I wouldn't be playing so much. Oh well. As long you all are enjoying it.
    I have not played Avengers Alliance since unlocking Emma Frost either. Might have played a little bit but once I unlocked Emma, the urge to play the game died down. ;-) I too missed her P5 costume! Oh well. It is a fun game though.
    Never Forgive. Never Forget. Justice for Butter Rum. ♥
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  3. #4203
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    Quote Originally Posted by airdreams View Post
    "So... why do you write these strong female characters?" (Joss Whedon's Equality Now speech)

    Just read it and it reminds me of this dissertation.
    Whedon has a pretty narrow idea of what constitutes a strong female character though, the shallow generic tripe that's palatable to both feminists and mainstream audiences without really offending either. Certainly, if you comparison his Emma to Morrison's, it's not even a contest.

  4. #4204
    Senior Member Goldgeller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ButterRum View Post
    I have not played Avengers Alliance since unlocking Emma Frost either. Might have played a little bit but once I unlocked Emma, the urge to play the game died down. ;-) I too missed her P5 costume! Oh well. It is a fun game though.
    Yeah, unlocking Emma killed my urge to play, also, the game had a lot of grinding! It was a fun little arcade style quarter plunker. And really, console games came first. I had no reason why I couldn't play MAA but I was simply playing significantly better games, and time-locking the Spec-Ops backfired in that I totally wasn't going to give up Borderlands 2 to play that little grindin' game.

    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOff View Post
    Whedon has a pretty narrow idea of what constitutes a strong female character though, the shallow generic tripe that's palatable to both feminists and mainstream audiences without really offending either. Certainly, if you comparison his Emma to Morrison's, it's not even a contest.
    I don't follow Whedon enough to know for certain. But I think from what I've seen of him, your critique seems to ring true. I hate to get into the whole "equality" debate, since there are way too many priors and assumptions that have to be laid out, just to get started on the argument. At least in comics, I'll say... I just think it's silly to that all possible arguments regarding aesthetics, cultural norms, gender roles, differences and similarities between "men" and "women" can-- in the name of equality-- be boiled down to "oh, girl power." Who knew? That gender equality in comics was largely just women expressing masculine aggression, whether it be cultural or sexual? And I'm just talking about comics. It's happening in videogames more and more now as well. I'm not saying that there is no truth or value to the above (my conception of their "equality") but I am saying I don't see a ton of arguments being made, it just seemed like the assumptions were locked in place as though an argument were made.

  5. #4205
    Perfectly Safe Penguin ariwl1's Avatar
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    I've never really gotten the hype with Whedon. I watched some of Buffy but never finished it. I tried Firefly and didn't make it past the second episode. I guess he just isn't my up of tea. I think he's alright most of the time although his characters tend to exhibit similar Whedonism's that get uninteresting after a while. I was so glad the Avengers seemed to avoid this except for the characters where it would actually fit.

    I think people give him a lot of credit because aside from being an ok writer, he's one of the few Hollywood guys who actually regularly writes decent women. It's kind of like the Tyler Perry effect. When you have a demographic eager for representation that isn't born of old worn out stereotypes you'll take whatever you can get regardless of how run of the mill it might be.

  6. #4206
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldgeller View Post
    I don't follow Whedon enough to know for certain. But I think from what I've seen of him, your critique seems to ring true. I hate to get into the whole "equality" debate, since there are way too many priors and assumptions that have to be laid out, just to get started on the argument. At least in comics, I'll say... I just think it's silly to that all possible arguments regarding aesthetics, cultural norms, gender roles, differences and similarities between "men" and "women" can-- in the name of equality-- be boiled down to "oh, girl power." Who knew? That gender equality in comics was largely just women expressing masculine aggression, whether it be cultural or sexual? And I'm just talking about comics. It's happening in videogames more and more now as well. I'm not saying that there is no truth or value to the above (my conception of their "equality") but I am saying I don't see a ton of arguments being made, it just seemed like the assumptions were locked in place as though an argument were made.
    Yeah I think too often mass media interprets equality as homogeneity, and thinks that creating role models for girls is just a matter taking a preconceived male character, slapping on some tits, writing some trite dialogue about girl power, and calling it a day. This is not to say that there aren't girls out there who idolize characters like Hope and X-23, or share the same outlook and aspirations. But as far as tapping into the essential wish fulfillment fantasy of a broad demographic the same way that Cable or Wolverine (and yes, even Cyclops) can for young boys, characters like that just fall dreadfully short of the mark.

    In fact, I think what I appreciate most about Emma is that she's not just another one of those straw feminists, and that she combines a lot of recognizably human foibles and a mishmash of often contradictory perspectives into one delightfully feminine package. But this kind of character does need to be handled with great care, or else she'll slip into the kind of unreadable mess that she was under Fraction.

  7. #4207
    Senior Member Goldgeller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ariwl1 View Post
    I've never really gotten the hype with Whedon. I watched some of Buffy but never finished it. I tried Firefly and didn't make it past the second episode. I guess he just isn't my up of tea. I think he's alright most of the time although his characters tend to exhibit similar Whedonism's that get uninteresting after a while. I was so glad the Avengers seemed to avoid this except for the characters where it would actually fit.

    I think people give him a lot of credit because aside from being an ok writer, he's one of the few Hollywood guys who actually regularly writes decent women. It's kind of like the Tyler Perry effect. When you have a demographic eager for representation that isn't born of old worn out stereotypes you'll take whatever you can get regardless of how run of the mill it might be.
    I've purchased a few Buffy episodes from iTunes-- it was better than I thought. He has a very hip, if subtle, dialogue style (unlike Bendis, who is also hip, but his "voice" is in every character) and he rights tight enjoyable plots. In that sense Whedon is pretty cool. I also watched Doll House (I missed the ending though) and that was fun. But some Whedon fans have this mythology that they've built around Whedon, and that I don't get.

    Of course, I will always have respect for Whedon's talent because of AXM. I'll think about what Whedon writes in his scripts when I watch or read his work. His thoughts on religion, politics and gender-- when he gives speeches or cuts commercials-- aren't things I think about otherwise.

  8. #4208
    Senior Member Goldgeller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOff View Post
    Yeah I think too often mass media interprets equality as homogeneity, and thinks that creating role models for girls is just a matter taking a preconceived male character, slapping on some tits, writing some trite dialogue about girl power, and calling it a day. This is not to say that there aren't girls out there who idolize characters like Hope and X-23, or share the same outlook and aspirations. But as far as tapping into the essential wish fulfillment fantasy of a broad demographic the same way that Cable or Wolverine (and yes, even Cyclops) can for young boys, characters like that just fall dreadfully short of the mark.

    In fact, I think what I appreciate most about Emma is that she's not just another one of those straw feminists, and that she combines a lot of recognizably human foibles and a mishmash of often contradictory perspectives into one delightfully feminine package. But this kind of character does need to be handled with great care, or else she'll slip into the kind of unreadable mess that she was under Fraction.
    Very well said! Especially the Emma part. I don't think she was quite "unreadable" under Fraction, but I do understand where that come from, and I know I'm probably the lone voice on that one, so I don't expect to gain much traction there.

    And your point about how there are some girls who probably idolize X-23 and Hope-- let me riff off that and say that "that's totally cool." There's a place for "girl power." I think we are broadly in agreement with that. And I think we're in agreement also that characters need to stand on their own legs. That's why I don't know what "a strong woman" is in comics. Is Mary Jane "a strong woman" she's been in Spider-man for a long time. Certainly she out-lasted other "girl power attempts." The issue-- and I think you're saying this as well--
    is that there doesn't seem to be any thought given to this "maybe there are other conceptions of "the strong woman." There may not be! But it isn't at all clear that, at least in comics, it isn't clear that's it's been thought about much.

    I guess another way of saying the above is "Can't you do two things at once? This just puts comic women in a different box."

  9. #4209
    Perfectly Safe Penguin ariwl1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOff View Post
    Yeah I think too often mass media interprets equality as homogeneity, and thinks that creating role models for girls is just a matter taking a preconceived male character, slapping on some tits, writing some trite dialogue about girl power, and calling it a day. This is not to say that there aren't girls out there who idolize characters like Hope and X-23, or share the same outlook and aspirations. But as far as tapping into the essential wish fulfillment fantasy of a broad demographic the same way that Cable or Wolverine (and yes, even Cyclops) can for young boys, characters like that just fall dreadfully short of the mark.

    In fact, I think what I appreciate most about Emma is that she's not just another one of those straw feminists, and that she combines a lot of recognizably human foibles and a mishmash of often contradictory perspectives into one delightfully feminine package. But this kind of character does need to be handled with great care, or else she'll slip into the kind of unreadable mess that she was under Fraction.
    Agreed. I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with characters like Hope and X-23, but they almost never interest me. I think this is why my favorite female characters always have traits that are very clearly "female" based. Maybe I'm just old fashioned or something, but I like seeing characters like Emma who know they are women, are proud of it, and now how to use that to their advantage. I suppose you could say that sticks women in somewhat of a narrow box, but I'm not convinced there's no room for flexibility in there. And the concept of complete gender neutrality just unnerves me for some reason.

    But talking feminism online is just a minefield waiting to happen. Just look at the Anita Sarkeessian incident. *shudders*

  10. #4210
    Veteran Member airdreams's Avatar
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    I've never tried to find statistics or diagrams or tables but I have no doubt that males are the predominant consumer of comic books, so the closure focused female characters on adopting values that served the interests of the dominant group - men. The lack of participation among women in the comic industry should be (partially) responsible for the presentation of women in the comics, which has been disproportionately made by male creators working for the male owners then provided to male readers. The industry needs more females…
    In dog days, all we need is Frost.

  11. #4211
    Ain't no Snowflake yanapryde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOff View Post
    Whedon ..... Certainly, if you comparison his Emma to Morrison's, it's not even a contest.
    So which do you prefer?
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    "Um, blah, blah, blah. And, Girl Power. Feminism, d'you know what I mean?"

  12. #4212
    F&*k BOTA!!! Hariel0079's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ariwl1 View Post
    I've never really gotten the hype with Whedon. I watched some of Buffy but never finished it. I tried Firefly and didn't make it past the second episode. I guess he just isn't my up of tea. I think he's alright most of the time although his characters tend to exhibit similar Whedonism's that get uninteresting after a while. I was so glad the Avengers seemed to avoid this except for the characters where it would actually fit.

    I think people give him a lot of credit because aside from being an ok writer, he's one of the few Hollywood guys who actually regularly writes decent women. It's kind of like the Tyler Perry effect. When you have a demographic eager for representation that isn't born of old worn out stereotypes you'll take whatever you can get regardless of how run of the mill it might be.
    I'm glad I'm not the only with this similar thinking. This is pretty much how I feel.

  13. #4213
    Perfectly Safe Penguin ariwl1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by airdreams View Post
    I've never tried to find statistics or diagrams or tables but I have no doubt that males are the predominant consumer of comic books, so the closure focused female characters on adopting values that served the interests of the dominant group - men. The lack of participation among women in the comic industry should be (partially) responsible for the presentation of women in the comics, which has been disproportionately made by male creators working for the male owners then provided to male readers. The industry needs more females…
    This is something I always kind of wonder about. I'm certainly not opposed to inviting more women into the industry on the creative and editorial level both. And for sure the industry could do a lot more to be more inviting to women talent and ensure that this is an industry they'd enjoy working in.

    But I always wonder how many would actually be interested in the job in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by yanapryde View Post
    So which do you prefer?
    I prefer Morrison's Emma, but I enjoyed Whedon's take. Kitty on the other hand...well I could see traces of the character that supposedly inspired Buffy, but she still was off in a few areas for me.

  14. #4214
    Mugga, please. xhx23x's Avatar
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    I'm a complete Whedon fan, but I don't think his Astonishing was the best thing in the world either. I liked it, and I certainly read it more than twice, but I always say that I enjoy it as a Joss story, but not sure how I feel about it as an X-Story. Not sure it that makes sense. There were certain stuff that were done in a pretty great way, particularly how the characters related to each other (No, not the banter, but like the Emma/Scott dynamic was interesting, he sold me on them actually falling for each other in their messed up way). I think the major problem it had too much nostalgia shoved for the sake of it. I think anyone can enjoy it for what it is, and Cassaday's art was stellar (unlike the pile of shit in that new book).

    Also, Facebook players, Emma's out, she's 200 CPs and her Phoenix Five Outfits are also out too for anyone who didn't get them. She'll be sold for the next 6 days.

  15. #4215
    Mugga, please. xhx23x's Avatar
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    double post

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