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  1. #76
    Bishop was right. Sighphi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treqqor View Post
    Why do we even care about the science?
    We have sword fighting and a "magic" macguffin...

    Who cares if it follows physics or not. Star Wars and Harry Potter have done just fine not worrying about this.
    So why are some people having such a difficult time with this and using "Science" in a TV show as an excuse to not watch it? Especially on a comic book forum.
    Harry Potter and Star Wars both have some basic rules about how stuff works, people on both series dont just randomly do stuff and we never know why or how.

    In Revolution the big thing is the setting which has not gotten an explanation. If a story doesnt explain the setting, which has a HUGE IMPACT in this story, how are the viewer supposed to react to the events the characters are going through? You need a base to start from.

    So far the characters are making conclusions that the viewer already knows, "This could be man-made." Yeah, we knew that last episode. Most of this setting is unexplained, i dont even know how this Militia thing functions, so i dont really have any connection with the characters. I dont know how im suppose to be feeling about what they are going through because i dont know the dangers or what they can and cannot do. Apparently The Militia are the rulers and they make the rules? They made some rule of no guns and they are enforcing them by....... having a group of people with swords and one with a gun walk around? That doesnt seem to be an effective police force as shown by this episode and three people taking the whole group out. So how does the Militia control all these people?

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sighphi View Post
    Harry Potter and Star Wars both have some basic rules about how stuff works, people on both series dont just randomly do stuff and we never know why or how.
    The "rules" of Harry Potter are "it's magic." And there's really no argument that Lucas's explanation for The Force qualifies as anything even remotely acceptable as "science." It's made up gobbledygook. Which is fine as long as you go in understanding and accepting that that's how it works.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sighphi View Post
    In Revolution the big thing is the setting which has not gotten an explanation. If a story doesnt explain the setting, which has a HUGE IMPACT in this story, how are the viewer supposed to react to the events the characters are going through? You need a base to start from.

    The show's been on for two episodes. It took 4 movies and 23 years before we got any kind of "explanation" of the Force. It seems pretty clear that the explanation of how the blackout happened and how it works is part of the backstory that's going to be revealed over time, along with the nature of involvement of Charlie's father in the whole thing. Not everything needs to be explained in detail in the first 5 minutes of the first show.
    Last edited by kalorama; 09-26-2012 at 03:20 PM.

  3. #78
    Veteran Member Simbob4000's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    The "rules" of Harry Potter are "it's magic." And there's really no argument that Lucas's explanation for The Force qualifies as anything even remotely acceptable as "science." It's made up gobbledygook. Which is fine as long as you go in understanding and accepting that that's how it works.





    The show's been on for two episodes. It took 4 movies and 23 years before we got any kind of "explanation" of the Force. It seems pretty clear that the explanation of how the blackout happened and how it works is part of the backstory that's going to be revealed over time, along with the nature of involvement of Charlie's father in the whole thing. Not everything needs to be explained in detail in the first 5 minutes of the first show.
    We were told what the Force was something like twenty minutes (maybe less) into the first Star Wars movie.

  4. #79
    In the Evil Force of Evil Chiasm's Avatar
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    The second episode improved on some things but also was horribly cliched.

    One improvement is that they dirtied the characters up a bit. Charlie shouldn't look like she just stepped out of a teen fashion magazine with perfect hair and makeup and they finally did smudge some dirt around on her face and minimized her makeup.

    Writing wise though the story was horribly cliched and almost paint by the numbers bad. I expect a lot better out of an Abrams show by this point so I'm thinking he really isn't much involved other than lending his name to it. What really makes it bad is the utter cartoonish cardboard villains. The heroes journey, which is what this story basically is, is much better when you have well defined and complex villains. Monroe and Gus Fring (whatever Giancarlo's characters name is) are so cliched that I found myself groaning.

    I'll keep watching in hopes that it gets better as a lot of genre shows, like Farscape which I love, start weak but get better as time goes on. I'm just dubious that the show will last long enough for that to happen because I expect most viewers to give up on it.

  5. #80
    Bishop was right. Sighphi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    The "rules" of Harry Potter are "it's magic."
    Yes, magic is magic but certain people have it, and you need to go to school to learn the incantations, the hand movements, the words, what a spells can do and what spells can and cannot be done. A whole mess of rules were stated in those books. Pretty much all the books has some explanation about some facet of magic.

    And there's really no argument that Lucas's explanation for The Force qualifies as anything even remotely acceptable as "science." It's made up gobbledygook. Which is fine as long as you go in understanding and accepting that that's how it works.
    The point is that it's an explanation.... and that's what some people are asking, give us a bit of info. A mystery doesnt have to be a 100% blind to be a mystery.

    The show's been on for two episodes. It took 4 movies and 23 years before we got any kind of "explanation" of the Force. It seems pretty clear that the explanation of how the blackout happened and how it works is part of the backstory that's going to be revealed over time, along with the nature of involvement of Charlie's father in the whole thing. Not everything needs to be explained in detail in the first 5 minutes of the first show.
    In both Star Wars and Harry Potter the basic rules came on pretty early in the first films.
    And no one is asking for everything to be explained it just need a little bit of a setup, this show basically doesnt have any setup.
    Something happened where stuff doesnt work and 15 years some armies rule. That's all we got, that right there sounds like the one sentence summary used to sell the show not all the information we got about what is happening in the show after a couple of episodes.

    The quest to finding out what is happening should really get a bit more time. I think the problem here is that, that story seems more interesting that what is happening in the foreground. I'm not really down with what the characters and their random running around they have been doing so far.

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Toreador View Post
    I think the fact that not even batteries work. A flashlight is very basic: battery, wires, bulb. This 'magic field' is preventing the electrons flowing from the battery through the wire to the bulb and back. And a generator is a loop of copper wire moving through a magnetic field to create an electric current.

    The fact that the school teacher used her little medallion to neutralize the field shows that it can be counteracted but she (and her mysterious group) refuses to do so to re-start the world.
    My problem with the "it's magic" explanations for whatever took the technology away is that it actually makes things unnecessarily complicated. Here is one example:

    I think they mentioned somwhere in the pilot that even internal combustion engines don't work anymore. If that were simply due to a lack of a suitable fuel, it would be OK with me. But if the engines are not working anymore because of the "magic technology killer" then you also shouldn't be able to have working firearms. Why? Because they both work essentially the same way! In an internal combustion engine, a controlled combustion of vapourized fuel is used to push a piston. In a gun, a controlled combustion of gunpowder is used to push the bullet out of the gun barrel. So the problem here is not a violation of physics or chemistry as much as it is an inconsistent violation of physics or chemistry. Translation: bad storytelling using "magic" as a crutch.

  7. #82
    Immortal. So far so good! Treqqor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sighphi View Post
    Harry Potter and Star Wars both have some basic rules about how stuff works, people on both series dont just randomly do stuff and we never know why or how.

    In Revolution the big thing is the setting which has not gotten an explanation. If a story doesnt explain the setting, which has a HUGE IMPACT in this story, how are the viewer supposed to react to the events the characters are going through? You need a base to start from.

    So far the characters are making conclusions that the viewer already knows, "This could be man-made." Yeah, we knew that last episode. Most of this setting is unexplained, i dont even know how this Militia thing functions, so i dont really have any connection with the characters. I dont know how im suppose to be feeling about what they are going through because i dont know the dangers or what they can and cannot do. Apparently The Militia are the rulers and they make the rules? They made some rule of no guns and they are enforcing them by....... having a group of people with swords and one with a gun walk around? That doesnt seem to be an effective police force as shown by this episode and three people taking the whole group out. So how does the Militia control all these people?
    It's strange. On one hand, I'm reading that in the first 20 minutes of Star Wars, you were able to piece together how the force works. Levitation, mind control, shooting lightning from fingertips, the rules were there and you were smart enough to figure out the limitations and rules.

    But them I'm reading you don't know how militia's work and that you need more details to understand a pretty simple "post-apocolyptic" setting. To me, everything in Revolution is much simpler than in Star Wars, yet you find it more far fetched?

    It's like modern shows and film-making have conditioned viewers to need everything explained with no subtlety allowed or room for build-up. No wonder Smallville lasted as long as it did and Nolan movies do as well as they do. They. Explain. Everything. So. No. Viewer. Is. Left. Behind.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treqqor View Post
    It's strange. On one hand, I'm reading that in the first 20 minutes of Star Wars, you were able to piece together how the force works. Levitation, mind control, shooting lightning from fingertips, the rules were there and you were smart enough to figure out the limitations and rules.
    I'm pretty sure i just said some basic info.....pretty sure.

    But them I'm reading you don't know how militia's work
    Do you know how the Militia rules? How big is it's section of Chicago? Does it control trade? Does it control the food? What info do you know?
    Outside of the show sort of showing they are "in control" there is no info on them.
    How is anyone supposed to think of them as a threat? What, because they are viewed as evil by the main characters?
    What would make me think the main characters are correct in their views?

    and that you need more details to understand a pretty simple "post-apocolyptic" setting. To me, everything in Revolution is much simpler than in Star Wars, yet you find it more far fetched?
    Being in a post apocalyptic setting isnt the problem here, the problem is the setup for this post apocalyptic setting.
    Those are two different things.


    It's like modern shows and film-making have conditioned viewers to need everything explained with no subtlety allowed or room for build-up. No wonder Smallville lasted as long as it did and Nolan movies do as well as they do. They. Explain. Everything. So. No. Viewer. Is. Left. Behind.

    It seems like modern TV shows and film have condition viewers not to actually care about having a fleshed out functioning world, but to only care about the pretty action and the conflict of characters screaming back and forth which is suppose to stand for "drama." Dont worry if anything actually make any sort of cohesive sense.

    I guess that's why the Transformers movies made so much money. Each movie doesnt make sense when you try to tie it with the one before, hell, within each movie there are scenes that done make sense when comparing it to another that just came minutes before.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sighphi View Post
    It seems like modern TV shows and film have condition viewers not to actually care about having a fleshed out functioning world, but to only care about the pretty action and the conflict of characters screaming back and forth which is suppose to stand for "drama." Dont worry if anything actually make any sort of cohesive sense.
    Hete to tell you, but action, conflict, and character interaction don't just "stand for" drama, they're integral elements of drama. And, by and large they're the elements that most viewers care most about. Most viewers are more interested in them than in the minutiae of a show's fictional mythology. That said, it's a little unrealistic to expect full disclosure on any important elements in the first two episodes of a TV show. The suspense of being rewarded with more answers the more they watch is one of the primary hooks of serial fiction. If you give it all up in the first 5 minutes, it greatly reduces the viewers' impetus for coming back for more.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sighphi View Post
    Yes, magic is magic but certain people have it, and you need to go to school to learn the incantations, the hand movements, the words, what a spells can do and what spells can and cannot be done. A whole mess of rules were stated in those books. Pretty much all the books has some explanation about some facet of magic.
    We're not talking about books, we're talking about a TV show. You can't compare the level of detail in a novel (particularly one the size of a Potter novel) to that you get in 90 minutes of network TV (not including commercials). It's night and day/apples and oranges. And I haven't read any of the Potter books but even so I would wager that (A) much of the explanation you're talking about was greatly pruned or removed for the movies and (B) they don't explain everything about magic in the first 5 pages of the books. That information is revealed as the story unfolds throughout the book and the series. The same applies to Revolution. Just because the answers you want didn't come in the first 5 minutes before the opening credit roll doesn't mean they won't come or haven't been thought through.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sighphi View Post
    The point is that it's an explanation.... and that's what some people are asking, give us a bit of info. A mystery doesnt have to be a 100% blind to be a mystery.
    And the fact that they haven't told you every background detail in the first two episodes in no way, shape, or form equates to it being a 100% blind mystery. There were some pretty clear and obvious indications in the second episode of them moving towards more answers. That's the way a serial drama works: information is revealed in pieces over time.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sighphi View Post
    In both Star Wars and Harry Potter the basic rules came on pretty early in the first films.
    And the "basic rules" have been laid down in Revolution. Some kind of global event shut down all power around the world and is preventing it from being restarted. That's the basic rule of the event itself. The event was man-made, possibly involving some widespread conspiracy, and Charlie's father somehow had information that at least hinted about its coming. Monroe, an old army buddy of Dad's brother, has set himself up as a tinpot dicator and has his men scouring the country for Dad in hopes that he or his brother can give him the means to restore power and, basically, set himself up as emperor/god. That's the basic information you keep claiming is being withheld. It was all there in the first episode. What we haven't gotten yet are the intricate details, and there's no logical reason to expect (or, really, even want,) all the intricate details in the first two episodes of an ongoing series.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sighphi View Post
    And no one is asking for everything to be explained it just need a little bit of a setup, this show basically doesnt have any setup.
    Untrue. See previous response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sighphi View Post
    Something happened where stuff doesnt work and 15 years some armies rule. That's all we got, that right there sounds like the one sentence summary used to sell the show not all the information we got about what is happening in the show after a couple of episodes.
    Again, untrue. The basic groundwork has been laid. The point of the show's ongoing existence is to build on that groundwork.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sighphi View Post
    The quest to finding out what is happening should really get a bit more time. I think the problem here is that, that story seems more interesting that what is happening in the foreground. I'm not really down with what the characters and their random running around they have been doing so far.
    On this we can agree. And as I said in an earlier post, that's ultimately the show's likely fatal weakness. The upfront action is not interesting or compelling enough to hold viewer's attention strongly enough to get them to hang around waiting for more of the background answers. And as long as that's the case, then it really doesn't matter how much more of the background stuff they give us, because the background stuff is just that: background. It's the upfront stuff that's supposed to be the pull and the show appears to be coming up short on that score.
    Last edited by kalorama; 09-26-2012 at 11:04 PM.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    Hete to tell you, but action, conflict, and character interaction don't just "stand for" drama, they're integral elements of drama. And, by and large they're the elements that most viewers care most about. Most viewers are more interested in them than in the minutiae of a show's fictional mythology. That said, it's a little unrealistic to expect full disclosure on any important elements in the first two episodes of a TV show. The suspense of being rewarded with more answers the more they watch is one of the primary hooks of serial fiction. If you give it all up in the first 5 minutes, it greatly reduces the viewers' impetus for coming back for more.
    How many times must i repeat "basic info" before you understand this is just about some basic info about the world?

    Quote Originally Posted by kalorama View Post
    We're not talking about books, we're talking about a TV show. You can't compare the level of detail in a novel (particularly one the size of a Potter novel) to that you get in 90 minutes of network TV (not including commercials). It's night and day/apples and oranges. And I haven't read any of the Potter books but even so I would wager that (A) much of the explanation you're talking about was greatly pruned or removed for the movies and (B) they don't explain everything about magic in the first 5 pages of the books. That information is revealed as the story unfolds throughout the book and the series. The same applies to Revolution. Just because the answers you want didn't come in the first 5 minutes before the opening credit roll doesn't mean they won't come or haven't been thought through.
    I meant to use the word films the second time i wrote the word books.
    The books were filled with info and the movie tried to cover the important parts needed for the viewers to know about.

    And why do you insist on this all of nothing conversation NO ONE is having but you?


    And the fact that they haven't told you every background detail in the first two episodes in no way, shape, or form equates to it being a 100% blind mystery. There were some pretty clear and obvious indications in the second episode of them moving towards more answers. That's the way a serial drama works: information is revealed in pieces over time.
    Again with the everything i did not state at all.
    I wonder if you are actually reading my posts, it seems like you are just disagreeing to disagree.

    And the "basic rules" have been laid down in Revolution. Some kind of global event shut down all power around the world and is preventing it from being restarted. That's the basic rule of the event itself. The event was man-made, possibly involving some widespread conspiracy, and Charlie's father somehow had information that at least hinted about its coming.
    That's not a basic setting explanation of how the world functions that's an explanation of how the setting got to where it is now.

    Monroe, an old army buddy of Dad's brother, has set himself up as a tinpot dicator and has his men scouring the country for Dad in hopes that he or his brother can give him the means to restore power and, basically, set himself up as emperor/god. That's the basic information you keep claiming is being withheld. It was all there in the first episode. What we haven't gotten yet are the intricate details, and there's no logical reason to expect (or, really, even want,) all the intricate details in the first two episodes of an ongoing series.

    Untrue. See previous response.


    Again, untrue. The basic groundwork has been laid. The point of the show's ongoing existence is to build on that groundwork.
    And that's character development.
    And you continue to go on this weird trip about all info no one has asked for.
    It seems like you dont really have an argument so you are creating one.



    And as long as that's the case, then it really doesn't matter how much more of the background stuff they give us, because the background stuff is just that: background. It's the upfront stuff that's supposed to be the pull and the show appears to be coming up short on that score.
    Well you just prove my point there, "background stuff is just that: background."
    If you dont know about the world the characters inhabit how can you care about the characters?
    Without that they are just talking heads running around spewing baseless random things.
    If you dont ground the characters half of the stuff that is going on doesnt make sense. Like i mentioned already, the Militia are supposed to be the bad guys....... but are they? Why? Cause they are the authority? Oh, they were using some people to move a Helicopter? Oh the humanity! Oh they killed one? It's a post-apoc world, there's point in wasting resources on some criminal. Well..... is there any resources to waste? Cause in this world people seem to be doing ok. The main character live in this kick ass place and everyone seems to have a house.
    Last edited by Sighphi; 09-27-2012 at 01:37 AM.

  12. #87

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    I'm just waiting for the headline: NBC Pulls the Plug on Revolution...

    A series about the geopolitical ramifications of worldwide power loss and an examination of just how quickly our modern society would break down would be a fascinating subject for a tv series, but all that is just shunted to mere set dressing for maniacal despots, magic amulet plots, and poorly choreographed swordplay. So far it's just a piss-poor live action adaptation of Thundarr the Barbarian.
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  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sighphi View Post
    How many times must i repeat "basic info" before you understand this is just about some basic info about the world?
    Trust me, once was more than enough. But you can keep saying it if it makes you feel better.

    As usual, trying to actually have a rational discussion with you proves a waste of time. Every time someone responds to your points you try to move the goal posts either by pretending not to say what you clearly said or trying to reframe the response so it doesn't say what it actually said. Do you really think you're talking at such a high level that the rest of the world just doesn't understand? Anyway, I've made my point. The vast majority of your complaints are pedantic, premature, and moot. Much of what you're complaining about not being there is either there or likely to come very soon. If you're not inclined to hang around and wait, don't let anyone else keep you from leaving.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sighphi View Post
    Without that they are just talking heads running around spewing baseless random things.

    Sometimes it's just too easy.
    Last edited by kalorama; 09-27-2012 at 05:28 AM.

  14. #89
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    I like the show...it's two episodes in and I really don't expect everything to be explained, but that is just me

    I tend to have pretty low standards when it comes to network TV these days
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simbob4000 View Post
    We were told what the Force was something like twenty minutes (maybe less) into the first Star Wars movie.
    But it wasn't explained were it came from or how it actually worked until Phantom Menace, and it's the "how it works" part that Sighphi has his knickers all atwist over.
    Last edited by kalorama; 09-27-2012 at 05:25 AM.

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