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  1. #886
    Senior Member finfangfool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOff View Post
    Christ, it's not the late 90s anymore, nobody cares about wrestling these days. And besides, if Cyclops is any wrestler, it'd have to be John Cena, pre-packaged and market-tested anti-establishment fit for mass consumption.
    Sounds more like Wolverine, only instead of the smack-talking, trash-rapping original version we're getting the "you can't see me" family-friendly version. Almost the same character, unrealistic feats and all.
    A Fool for the Foom

  2. #887
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    Lol, wrestling.

  3. #888
    Senior Member finfangfool's Avatar
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    It used to be pretty good (for what it is), but it started to decline when Vince bought up WCW and ECW. I stopped watching after my favorite wrestler at the time went nuts and killed his family (Chris Benoit, for those not familiar not a wrestling storyline but tragically a real thing). I'll tune in every now and again to see what I'm "missing", but I haven't stumbled on to anything that makes me want to continue past the 5 minute mark while something else is on commercial.
    A Fool for the Foom

  4. #889
    Gambit Fan From The BR Juggs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by finfangfool View Post
    It used to be pretty good (for what it is), but it started to decline when Vince bought up WCW and ECW. I stopped watching after my favorite wrestler at the time went nuts and killed his family (Chris Benoit, for those not familiar not a wrestling storyline but tragically a real thing). I'll tune in every now and again to see what I'm "missing", but I haven't stumbled on to anything that makes me want to continue past the 5 minute mark while something else is on commercial.


    Man i miss the old ECW...when they was wrestling on Cable. Also Chris Benoit was an amazing wrestler, but that was a sad event that happen.

  5. #890
    Junior Member Hardcase678's Avatar
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    I honestly see no reason why scott should have to redeem himself. He acted in the best interest for his people.

  6. #891
    Hex Magic Nemesis@'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andrewdrexler View Post
    So they are Avengers and get a "get out of being a genocidal madman\madwoman" free pass?

    That kind of sums up the WHY Scott will never be forgiven and has to be a "bad guy". It’s because he is NOT an Avenger. If he had appeared in an Avengers title, they would have sad “Bad Cyclops, no biscuits at the dinner table for you this week” and that would have been the end of it. But since he refused to fall at Cpt. America’s feet and pledge his undying admiration he gets sent to a prison so the prison inmates can teach him to respect the Cpt.
    No, the reason has nothing to do with being vindictive or not.

    The fact is that Wanda and Simon were victims of bad writing from Bendis who ignored all previous history. The same happened with Wanda happened to Cyclops but on a smaller scale. None of them deserves prison for writing bad

  7. #892
    Hex Magic Nemesis@'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclopsj316 View Post
    Cyclops is not just a classic X-Man... he is THE X-MAN. By your own logic, there should be no reason not to accept him.




    1) X-Tinction team worked out excellent. It was only until Golden Boy Cap had a hard on against Cyke, that he's now a fugitive apparently.
    2) Again, Jean didn't come back to get Charles in charge and avert the future... she got Scott.
    3) Nope. Scott chose to leave the X-Me and Emma. Jean MADE him choose otherwise. It really is that black and white. Without Jeans interference, it wouldn't have happened. True story bro.


    Finally. yes mutants are here not in spite of him but because of him. He fought to have Hope and the phoenix come together. Ironman and avengers sought to keep this from happening, and forced the phoenix into Scott among others. This direct avengers led interference led to Him deciding that he could help the mutant race himself.. to which he was doing quite well for the entire planet until Cap antagonized him again. Remember.. it was Scott that always believed that Hope should have had the phoenix... the avengers didn't want her to have it at all.
    Yes, especially if he was the victim of a plot of shit

  8. #893
    Here, I can build. Marveluted's Avatar
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    Much like the Scarlet Witch, he can return to heroism but he'll always have that mark on his record. You don't get to erase "I killed Xavier right in front of the X-Men and Avengers." The Scarlet Witch can never erase "I ended all mutants." It's their Hank Pym slapping the Wasp moment. It's there forever and will impact how reader's will perceive the character -- likely in a more significant way than Marvel intended. Cyke can be redeemed to a point, much like what happened with Hank Pym, but the stench of his mistakes will linger on long past his "redemption."
    "When even one American - who has done nothing wrong - is forced by fear to shut his mind and close his mouth - then all Americans are in peril."- Harry S. Truman

  9. #894
    Senior Member Drax1981's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marveluted View Post
    Much like the Scarlet Witch, he can return to heroism but he'll always have that mark on his record. You don't get to erase "I killed Xavier right in front of the X-Men and Avengers." The Scarlet Witch can never erase "I ended all mutants." It's their Hank Pym slapping the Wasp moment. It's there forever and will impact how reader's will perceive the character -- likely in a more significant way than Marvel intended. Cyke can be redeemed to a point, much like what happened with Hank Pym, but the stench of his mistakes will linger on long past his "redemption."
    There is no stain on Scott. The stain is with Xavier. Captain America too, but mostly Chuck.

    Chuck chose to leave Legion behind to go deal with Scott. Chuck chose to try to hit Scott with a psychic attack to distract him from Dr. Strange's magical attack. Chuck chose to stand around when his plan didn't work and the Avengers attacked. Hell, Chuck chose to physically be there rather than go to New York and hook himself up to Cerebro.

    The moment the fighting starts, all bets are off. The Avengers knew it, they were going for the kill. Storm knew it, she tried hitting Emma with a lightning bolt larger than Emma is. Wolverine damn sure knew it, killing Scott is the only thing he thinks about. Chuck should have known it too and if he didn't then someone should have told him.

    And the result of Chuck's choices? Now both Scott and Legion are alone. Luckily, Legion has already decided that Chuck's legacy is a crock and he is better off without it. Hopefully Scott will come to his senses about that as well.

  10. #895
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drax1981 View Post
    There is no stain on Scott. The stain is with Xavier. Captain America too, but mostly Chuck.

    Chuck chose to leave Legion behind to go deal with Scott. Chuck chose to try to hit Scott with a psychic attack to distract him from Dr. Strange's magical attack. Chuck chose to stand around when his plan didn't work and the Avengers attacked. Hell, Chuck chose to physically be there rather than go to New York and hook himself up to Cerebro.

    The moment the fighting starts, all bets are off. The Avengers knew it, they were going for the kill. Storm knew it, she tried hitting Emma with a lightning bolt larger than Emma is. Wolverine damn sure knew it, killing Scott is the only thing he thinks about. Chuck should have known it too and if he didn't then someone should have told him.

    And the result of Chuck's choices? Now both Scott and Legion are alone. Luckily, Legion has already decided that Chuck's legacy is a crock and he is better off without it. Hopefully Scott will come to his senses about that as well.
    I agree there is no stain and it's Xavier's own fault he did.

    one correction though is that I think Scott already knows Xavier dream is dumb. He said as much in Uncanny Avengers. Despite naming his new school after him he going in a very different direction than chuck did.

  11. #896
    Your Move DarthCyclopsRLZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    one correction though is that I think Scott already knows Xavier dream is dumb. He said as much in Uncanny Avengers. Despite naming his new school after him he going in a very different direction than chuck did.
    Of course he will. He won't guilt trip, coddle or brainwash the meat sh... students into staying.

  12. #897
    Here, I can build. Marveluted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterwind View Post
    I agree there is no stain and it's Xavier's own fault he did.

    one correction though is that I think Scott already knows Xavier dream is dumb. He said as much in Uncanny Avengers. Despite naming his new school after him he going in a very different direction than chuck did.
    The fact remains: Somebody point blank asks Scott, "Didn't you kill your mentor?" He has to say "yes" or at the very least stammer through a lengthy explanation of why it's not his fault. Same thing happens when someone asks Wanda, "Didn't you depower almost all the mutants?"
    "When even one American - who has done nothing wrong - is forced by fear to shut his mind and close his mouth - then all Americans are in peril."- Harry S. Truman

  13. #898
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marveluted View Post
    The fact remains: Somebody point blank asks Scott, "Didn't you kill your mentor?" He has to say "yes" or at the very least stammer through a lengthy explanation of why it's not his fault. Same thing happens when someone asks Wanda, "Didn't you depower almost all the mutants?"
    The point you're missing is that killing Xavier wasn't a problem. Depowering the mutants was.

  14. #899

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    So, I have a number of points I’d like to make, but here’s the most salient. Flash back to the original Dark Phoenix saga. A possessed Jean Grey blows up a solar system, killing billions of sentient lifeforms, essentially for funsies. Except for the Shiar and Marvel editorial, nobody holds her responsible. Heck, even the Shiar feel bad about the fact that she needs to die. This is where Scott’s problems really start. Claremont never intended to kill Jean. But editorial insisted. It is unquestionably the right ending, and makes for a better story. But it threw off Claremont’s long-range plans.

    He wanted to have Scott and Jean retire and ride off into the sunset, occasionally coming around to offer their experience as veteran X-Men, but no longer main characters. In lieu of this, he created Madelyne Pryor to try and give Scott a consolation prize happy ending. This would have been okay (not very creative, but ok) except that John Bynre pulled a fast one and resurrected Jean in the pages of Fantastic Four. Then editorial insisted on having the original five back together in X-Factor. So Louise Simonsen clumsily shoe-horned Scott via character derailment out of his marriage and into the new book. You can pretty much tell that this ruins him for Claremont, and he just doesn’t seem to enjoy writing him after this point, despite his attempts to salvage his character with retcons about childhood psychological abuse at the hands of Mr. Sinister.

    Then came the 90’s, and Marvel needed a team they could put on posters and cross-market with the animated series. So Magneto is forced to become a villain again (even in that, Claremont writes it in such a way that Magneto transcends the 2D morality of superhero comics) and revived is the Scott/Jean/Logan love triangle that had been long since put to rest with Scott and Logan settling their differences in the Proteus arc and Logan moving on to Mariko. Ten years of terrible recycled stories later, we get to Morrison’s run. Morrison tries, but ultimately his portrayal of Scott as someone so insecure and tormented that he literally can’t open up to anybody who won’t read his mind falls flat, as does his stripping Magneto (easily Claremont's best character and biggest achievement during his run) back down to a raving Evil dude in an attempt to parody the cyclical nature of X-Men stories. But it does set up a major point for his current portrayal: namely, that if he had retired again after Jean’s death instead of taking over the school, the future becomes complete crap, with Beast as a supervillain possessed by John Sublime.

    So his dead wife psychically nudges him into a relationship with Emma in order to anchor him to the school. Which he takes a lot of crap for from pretty much everybody. But in-story, the point stands: Jean could see the possible timelines, and made the best choice she could. If Scott doesn’t take charge, and start sacrificing his ideals in the face of "mere" survival, and do everything that Scott does from that point on, the future is screwed. This is followed by Whedon’s run, which is the best treatment of Cyclops since Dark Phoenix saga, and therefore needs no comment here.

    Then comes “No more mutants”, and Scott’s subsequent ascendance to mutant leader. He makes a number of decisions that characters and readers may dislike, but knowing at a meta-level that if anyone else had been in charge things would have been much worse makes it hard to judge him. Of course, in-story nobody is aware of this, which makes the irony of Beast’s perch atop his incredibly high horse for the last few years highly ironic.

    Finally, Avengers vs. X-Men. I won’t pretend that was a good story. The Avengers suddenly taking an interest in the Phoenix after years of Jean Grey and Rachel Summers just walking around everywhere with it is bad enough. But what gets me is this: Jean Grey, one of the world’s most powerful psychics, possessed by Phoenix, kills billions, nobody holds that against her personally. Scott Summers, NOT a powerful psychic, possessed by Phoenix (because of Iron Man’s meddling), tries to make the world better (misguided but understandable), kills one person while possessed= everybody hates that guy and insists that he is responsible for what he did while under the influence of a cosmic fire god. Despite the fact that he was right the whole time about what was needed to save the mutant race. Starts defying authorities who try to nab mutants and throw them into detention or internment camps without trial? Must be a villain. The truth is that right now Scott stands in opposition to “smells of fresh lilacs” Wolverine and his team, who are ostensibly the good guys, so people label him the villain.

    Sorry for the long rant, I tried to edit it down to the important stuff.

  15. #900
    Lady Lasergazer Dee Lurker's Avatar
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    Wee! Ranting is fun!

    The only thing I'm really going to have to correct you on is that it was Bob Layton and not Louise Simonson who made Scott walk out on his marriage. Simonson was the one who made Magneto evil again, though, so you can blame her for that one.

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