Can Cyclops redeem himself even after what he's done in Avengers vs X-Men

[anyajenkins]

But don't you know, Hope wasn't ready to be the Phoenix. She needed the extra training in dragon riding and water bucket carrying to truly fulfill her destiny. *roll eyes*

I don't even like x-23 very much but I don't see how she not 'human'. Seriously given how two of her big personality traits are brooding and cutting herself, I don't see how she could be a remorseless machine.

[Dragonage2ftw]

X-23 isn't legally anything because she isn't even human. She wasn't born, she was created. She isn't a person, she is a machine, what don't you get about that?

To treat a machine breaded to kill other people the same as person is kind of ridiculous don't you think? And unlike the others who used Laura to make a profit Scott used her for the benefit of mutantkind, I feel as if you're making a big deal out .

Laura is a human being. Clones are people. This was confirmed by elixir in X-Force #10 and in circle of four, when belasco said that X-23 has a soul. Even then, clones are not machines. They have DNA and emotions.

[darknessatnoon]

X23 fans should not cite Circle of Four. Half that event was dedicated to mocking her. It was anti-x23 satire.

[Omegastorm]

X-23 isn't legally anything because she isn't even human. She wasn't born, she was created. She isn't a person, she is a machine, what don't you get about that?

To treat a machine breaded to kill other people the same as person is kind of ridiculous don't you think? And unlike the others who used Laura to make a profit Scott used her for the benefit of mutantkind, I feel as if you're making a big deal out of nothing.

He used her to kill others, talk about a hero. A fragile ex prostitute/assasin was used for Scott's ego project, that's a good thing to you? Why are you ok with that but not ok with Xavier keeping Danger as a pet? They are the same thing, the only difference is that Danger didn't become an assassin.

I don't know what to say to this. You are grossly misinformed. Xavier has not savd the world more than Scott and Cyclops has done more for mutantkind that Xavier ever has. In case you haven't noticed an underlying theme with Xavier and the mutantrights struggle is that he never actually accomplished anything. He sat in his chair and did nothing. These sentiments have already been echoed in Uncanny Avengers and X-men Legacy. What has Xavier done for the mutants except create the X-men? And from then on it has been done Scott who has saved and protected mutantkind. Xavier has saved the world without Scott maybe a handful of times while Scott has done it countless time without Xavier. Unlike Xavier Scott actually got things done for mutantkind, instead of simply preaching about it.

Xavier got a ton done for mutants as he saved, raised a few generations of them. Practically everything we are reading about now is a result of everything Xavier did. When there was less than 200 mutants Xavier kept them hidden, quiet and the majority safe. That's not nothing. Oh and we have AOA, talk about Xavier's importance without him, we have a world run by Apocalypse and human death camps.

Xcorp, mutant sentinel projects, working with global governments, starting the several schools....Xavier did much for mutant kind and Scott did a lot too, but everything Scott is comes from Xavier.

I don't see your point about threatening a mayor who was about to blow-up all the mutants or creating a hit squad to kill those trying exterminate the mutant race. Would have him be like Xavier and do nothing while more mutants die?

when did Xavier sit by and just let mutants die? Oh wait he didn't. Scott did, Xavier didn't. My point was that Scott used to be a hero and he hasn't been one in years. That's my point about ideals. Scott doesn't have any save survival. That's not an ideal that's sentient mandate.

He spent the majority of his time not raping people's minds so you think he should be forgiven for those minds he did rape? Does that seem like a logical argument to you? While Scott was still in control of the power he was feeding the starving, healing the sick and freeing the oppressed. Yes, he is responsible for his actions.

and ignoring his team, letting them make a hell dimension on earth, and allow for the destruction of the capitol of Wakanda. All that happened while he was in control too ignore Emma's pleas for help, tear through multiple dimensions to get hope...

Isn't that kind of the thing of it though. Xavier would do kind things, gave the orphan a homes, and play this martyr. Yet at the same time, at the core of it, he was taking children, these impressionable and desperate children, and giving them a home while molding and using them to champion his ideal and fight his battle. Pretty much everything Xavier did, he did to further his own agenda and personal ideal. A personal ideal that he imposed on impressionable children that he used as his own personal soldiers. And while ya it was a noble agenda and a noble ideal, that doesn't make it right.

Scott did the same thing except he sent teens out to be hit men while Xavier's motives and ideals saved the world, Scott compromised that and became a killer. There is a big difference between superhero and assassin.

But hey, with his power, i guess it would be hard to not play god. Even at his very end he thought he could play god with a god, or at least a godlike entity. Trying to impose his will over it, and force it to obey him like it was his dog.

That's so horrible especially when that said godlike entity was pretty much crazy and eating steak with human blood. Scott had lost it by then someone had to rein him in. If not Xavier who?

o

[Winterwind]

Clones are just as human as anyone else, If not which natural twin is not human and which is a machine since identical twins are clones

Identical twins are not clones in anyway that is relevant to this discussion.

Wrong, Belasco confirmed she had a human soul. It just stank of science.

Feel free to keep up your anti-woman Pimpclops inspired rhetoric though. All it really does is betray you.



Only if you believe an evil alternate Xavier. I can see how Evil Cyclops would believe that though.

Lol at this anti-woman rhetoric. I have a problem with X-23, not women in general. It's also sexist and near idiotic for you think that females are the only ones forced into prostitution.

Also Madeline Prior who was grown in a test tube has a soul, so obviously having a soul or not having one is irrelevant of being human. I get that some of you like X-23 but is seems laughable to me to consider a cyborg, cloned from a cyborg, created for being a killing machine with the ability to instantaneously regenerate limbs and her entire cellular structure as human. Try going outside and convincing someone of that.

[Dragonage2ftw]

Identical twins are not clones in anyway that is relevant to this discussion.



Lol at this anti-woman rhetoric. I have a problem with X-23, not women in general. It's also sexist and near idiotic for you think that females are the only ones forced into prostitution.

Also Madeline Prior who was grown in a test tube has a soul, so obviously having a soul or not having one is irrelevant of being human. I get that some of you like X-23 but is seems laughable to me to consider a cyborg, cloned from a cyborg, created for being a killing machine with the ability to instantaneously regenerate limbs and her entire cellular structure as human. Try going outside and convincing someone of that.

Wolverine isn't a cyborg. A cyborg is someone who has technology merged with their body. Metal claws are not technology. Is Steve Rogers not a human being because of his enhanced healing factor and super strength? She was created to be a killing machine, yes, but she still has emotion and was forced to be a killer against her will. It doesn't even matter if she's human or not. Forcing a sentient being to kill others is still an awful thing to do, and I don't think you understand this.

[trajikflp]

Why? It's Cyclops own fault that the X-Gene wasn't restarted when Wanda flat out volunteered to not only reverse the spell but also pay for her crimes until he went trigger happy with the optic blasts. I'd say if it was anyone else who did it, it'd be sweet karma.

Odd, considering, it was an Avengers writer who decided wouldn't it be cooler if Doctor Doom took her reality warping power and gave himself a magical plastic surgery to fix his burn injuries and then married her, or rather a robotic version of her? If it was a writer who actually wasn't playing fantasy comic book teams with the X-men, you'd get a decent story where Captain America isn't stupid enough to make Wolverine an Avenger, much less trust him when he says he is going to follow his orders and not try to kill Hope himself. Fancy how that turned out.

[Kurolegacy]

Xavier and the A-Vengers had no right to interfere with the Phoenix. Cyclops did the right thing.

Problem is that, by Gillan's own words, had neither interfered then the world would have been destroyed. While he was right that the Phoenix could break the spell, he was wrong in his methods of going about it as proven both by Unit and the end result since he was lacking the necessary keys for the desired result to be achieved. And when it comes to dealing with a godlike cosmic entity, close is the difference between success and total destruction.

[trajikflp]

He sent teens out to be hit men? Who are you talking about? Elixir and X-23? Or are you referring to the New Mutants, who last I checked weren't teenagers. They bought into the idea that those threats needed to be dealt with and reigned in. Cyclops became a killer because their enemies were allowed to live and decided because they got a second chance, their enemies were even more motivated to go back and kick the crap out of the X-men again and again. So no, I can't imagine anyone in Cyclops position to not consider a permanent solution to their enemies. Hell, it worked for Wolverine and all his fans were all fuck yeah. Cyclops does it and these same people start preaching about compassion and bull caca that it wasn't right. Please spare us the hypocrisy that comes from drinking from Wolverine's teats. Last I checked, assassins were bad ass. Try selling a comic book about heroes lecturing the shit out of their villains. Let Wolverine be the first to calmly develop compassion after getting his claws/hands amputated. See how he fares being the pacifist that his fans keep clamoring for in Cyclops.

[MartinRedmond]

Problem is that, by Gillan's own words, had neither interfered then the world would have been destroyed. While he was right that the Phoenix could break the spell, he was wrong in his methods of going about it as proven both by Unit and the end result since he was lacking the necessary keys for the desired result to be achieved. And when it comes to dealing with a godlike cosmic entity, close is the difference between success and total destruction.

Sucks for the earth.

[Dragonage2ftw]

He sent teens out to be hit men? Who are you talking about? Elixir and X-23? Or are you referring to the New Mutants, who last I checked weren't teenagers. They bought into the idea that those threats needed to be dealt with and reigned in. Cyclops became a killer because their enemies were allowed to live and decided because they got a second chance, their enemies were even more motivated to go back and kick the crap out of the X-men again and again. So no, I can't imagine anyone in Cyclops position to not consider a permanent solution to their enemies. Hell, it worked for Wolverine and all his fans were all fuck yeah. Cyclops does it and these same people start preaching about compassion and bull caca that it wasn't right. Please spare us the hypocrisy that comes from drinking from Wolverine's teats. Last I checked, assassins were bad ass. Try selling a comic book about heroes lecturing the shit out of their villains. Let Wolverine be the first to calmly develop compassion after getting his claws/hands amputated. See how he fares being the pacifist that his fans keep clamoring for in Cyclops.

Elixir and X-23 where teenagers when they joined, yes. Their's also a delightful little scene where Cyke urges a teenager to kill someone. For a lot of people, it's not just killing, it's the questionable morality behind the killing. Why do several prisoners need to be tortured for all of eternaty when hurting the warden seemed to give him the message that it wasn't right to hurt mutants?

[Cyclopsj316]

When there was less than 200 mutants Xavier kept them hidden, quiet and the majority safe. That's not nothing. Oh and we have AOA, talk about Xavier's importance without him, we have a world run by Apocalypse and human death camps.

1) Scott's entire attitude since the 198 was to protect them, thus Utopia... something he concocted.. NOT Xavier. The "X-Tinction team designed to protect the mutant race on the verge of Extinction? Yep, Scott's idea.

2) AoA huh? Remember what happened when Cyclops was removed from the picture? That's right... another Apocalyptic future, ( Here Comes Tomorrow ) run by a Sublime / Beast Hybrid. In fact, it wasn't just human death camps, but mutants on the verge of extinction as well, so it was actually a worse apocalyptic future without Cyclops at the helm.

Jean literally had to come back in time to telepathically force Cyclops to take up the mantle of leadership to avert this apocalyptic future.. NOT Xavier.



This logically leads to the conclusion that averting AoA's future was important not because we needed Xavier to help mutantkind... but we needed him to RECRUIT CYCLOPS, so Scott could take over from there.

( Yes... Xavier is the Gui-Gon Jinn to Scott's Skywalker status on the totem of importance / relevance... )

[Dragonage2ftw]

Odd, considering, it was an Avengers writer who decided wouldn't it be cooler if Doctor Doom took her reality warping power and gave himself a magical plastic surgery to fix his burn injuries and then married her, or rather a robotic version of her? If it was a writer who actually wasn't playing fantasy comic book teams with the X-men, you'd get a decent story where Captain America isn't stupid enough to make Wolverine an Avenger, much less trust him when he says he is going to follow his orders and not try to kill Hope himself. Fancy how that turned out.

Wolverine is worthy of being an avenger.

[Dragonage2ftw]

Sucks for the earth.

Us earthlings can't seem to catch a break, eh?

[Kurolegacy]

Us earthlings can't seem to catch a break, eh?

Think the 616 earthlings have it bad, try living in the UU. All these world changing things stick and pretty much all they've been through has happened in the span of little more than a year.