BCC: Brevoort, Waid talk "Hulk," "Marvel NOW!" and renumbering

[CBR News]

Tom Brevoort and Mark Waid spoke on the futures of X-23, "X-Force", Nick Fury, and a possible "Young Avengers"-like book during the Marvel NOW panel at the Baltimore Comic-Con.


Full article here.

[spiderman101010]

That entire article is interesting, but the things I'm the most excited about are the titles X-23 is in and the new Young Avengers-like title. My money is on X-23 joining the new Young Avengers with Ms. America, Kid Loki, Wiccan, Hawkeye, Hulkling, Speed, Spider-girl and other new characters.

[KurtW95]

But I hear all the time from people who come and say I saw 'The Avengers' and I loved it. I want to read 'Avengers,' where do I start?

Sure you do.

[CrazyOldHermit]

Thats more or less the answer I expected to the "Why do you renumber so much" question.

But I think the follow-up hit the nail on the head. Relaunching it only works for the relaunch. In the long run it just leads to a more confusing continuity. Whats more confusing? One Thor #1 or a half dozen Thor #1s? It doesn't sound so inviting when it's "The Invincible Iron Man Vol 7 #1." Just look at the mess that is Hulk's publishing history. A #1 on the front of an issue doesn't have any magic powers, it isn't fooling anyone. Nobody picks up Daredevil #1 thinking it's the first Daredevil comic. It's just something that says "This is a good place to start." I've always thought that comics were easy to understand once you learned how they work. Once you figure out that a writer usually writes a succession of issues forming a continuing narrative and that you can divide long series into chunks defined by these narratives it's easy. So why can't Comixology and comic book stores provide that information? Why can't there be a sign or chart at a LCS or on Comixology's site saying where each Marvel series is at, listing what series are starting new arcs and what series are starting new runs and where to jump in?

[ChristianP]

At this point, Marvel (and DC) should probably just convert to a numbered arc system, like Dark Horse does with BPRD. Renumbering is annoying and kind of arbitrary, but if they did, say for example: Daredevil: The Omega Effect #1-5. Then when a new arc starts, they restart the numbering for the new arc. I prefer comics not to renumber, but at this point, they might as well.

[1USAgent]

The thing about renumbering and new readers "looking where to start"... Most of the time I think they get trades or storylines suggested to them, and not single issues. And even so, what is so intimidating to a new reader about a retailer saying, "oh here is a good place to start. So and so just started writing this with issue #52." I used to like the little text boxes with * reminding you in what issue an event happened. But they got rid of them because any references now would take up half a panel. And that is what really confuses readers and collectors. A retailer I know said someone came into the store looking for a particular issue of Wolverine. He rattled off the different series that all had issue #27s or whatever. The customer was dumbfounded. And since so many stories are like 6-parters now, why can't the customer open the cover, see what part the title is on, and then just wait until the new story finishes up and a new one begins? What about tv shows? People start watching shows after they've already begun all the time. "Oh, geez...CSI is on like season 10. I can't watch that, that's too many shows and I won't keep up!" Give me a break. I just don't buy the company line about new #1s. It's just a myopic view of things that just cause more damage in the long run.

[CrazyOldHermit]

The thing about renumbering and new readers "looking where to start"... Most of the time I think they get trades or storylines suggested to them, and not single issues. And even so, what is so intimidating to a new reader about a retailer saying, "oh here is a good place to start. So and so just started writing this with issue #52." I used to like the little text boxes with * reminding you in what issue an event happened. But they got rid of them because any references now would take up half a panel. And that is what really confuses readers and collectors. A retailer I know said someone came into the store looking for a particular issue of Wolverine. He rattled off the different series that all had issue #27s or whatever. The customer was dumbfounded. And since so many stories are like 6-parters now, why can't the customer open the cover, see what part the title is on, and then just wait until the new story finishes up and a new one begins? What about tv shows? People start watching shows after they've already begun all the time. "Oh, geez...CSI is on like season 10. I can't watch that, that's too many shows and I won't keep up!" Give me a break. I just don't buy the company line about new #1s. It's just a myopic view of things that just cause more damage in the long run.

Speaking of trades, the fear of big numbers is a huge detriment to those as well. Just look at the Spider-Man trades of the last few years. Throughout the majority of JMS' run the trades were numbered. Starting with what would have been Volume 11 the numbering was dropped. That was six years ago. Since then we've gone through Brand New Day and now Big Time and all of the trades (except for arcs covered across multiple trades) have been without numbers.

This makes zero sense. People are supposedly scared off by big numbers in comics because big numbers means tons of catching up to do. But people who are looking to jump into trades are doing so because they want to go back and read a ton. I've been asked where to start with Spider-Man and I always say "Well you could start with the current story, the previous story or the story previous to that," and when I list the books for them to check out it's always the same: JMS' run is simple, five books numbered one through five, while Brand New Day and Big Time have zero numbering meaning the reader has to do research to figure out what order to read the damn things. There are 20 books in BND, it wouldn't kill you to put a reading order on it.

This desperate bid for the most apathetic reader possible (the one who will pick a random book off the shelf at B&N) just makes it more difficult for people willing to become dedicated readers.

Thankfully they seem to have clued in a bit and started moving back towards volume numbers. But Christ, took you long enough.

[cactusmaac]

Brevoort said, “Even beyond the folks that are right here -- I think anybody that’s here in this room has been around comics for a while -- feels like you jump onto a book in the middle at issue 500 or issue 79 or whatever. But especially when you go out into the world, and you kinda lose sight of this when you’re kinda in our culture. But I hear all the time from people who come and say I saw 'The Avengers' and I loved it. I want to read 'Avengers,' where do I start? I’m confused, I don’t know. Just the very barrier like that is so off-putting to a civilian audience. Guys that want to get in, that want to be a part of what we do, and the real answer is you could start anywhere, but it’s one thing to tell them that and it’s another thing to get people to actually act on that."

It's easy enough to market characters to new readers. What you need to do that though is a strong roster of good to excellent stories in trade format that a potential buyer can be made aware of. Since TDKR's come out, Batman trade sales have gone through the roof and the buyers are likely all new readers catching up with Year One, DKR, Knightfall, Hush and the Long Halloween. If they want newer stories it's easy enough to point them in the direction of the Geoff Johns Earth One HC or Court of Owls.

Once you get a reader hooked on the character it becomes much easier to sell them on the continuing story in the monthlies since they're likely to want to get to grips with all the new adventures even if that means reading up on past continuity.

The way Marvel does things it's like they're addicted to the short term sales bump that comes with relaunching. It would also be less confusing if they stopped reverting to the classic numbering

[Paladin King]

I really love all the fans who get so unbelievably hung up on numbering. I just can't grasp why it's such a big issue. It has no real effect on the quality of the stories. So Gillen's Iron Man starts at #1 instead of #530 or whatever it is. So what? I doubt it had any impact on the substance of Gillen's script.

All the nonsense is generated by anal fans aggravated by the fact that their longboxes aren't as beautifully organized and sequenced as they'd like. Seriously, who cares? All that matters is whether the stories are good. I'm in it for art and narrative, not for longbox organization and staring at a big number and giggling at the thought that this book has been running for decades.

[SJNeal]

Thats more or less the answer I expected to the "Why do you renumber so much" question.

But I think the follow-up hit the nail on the head. Relaunching it only works for the relaunch. In the long run it just leads to a more confusing continuity. Whats more confusing? One Thor #1 or a half dozen Thor #1s? It doesn't sound so inviting when it's "The Invincible Iron Man Vol 7 #1." Just look at the mess that is Hulk's publishing history. A #1 on the front of an issue doesn't have any magic powers, it isn't fooling anyone. Nobody picks up Daredevil #1 thinking it's the first Daredevil comic. It's just something that says "This is a good place to start." I've always thought that comics were easy to understand once you learned how they work. Once you figure out that a writer usually writes a succession of issues forming a continuing narrative and that you can divide long series into chunks defined by these narratives it's easy. So why can't Comixology and comic book stores provide that information? Why can't there be a sign or chart at a LCS or on Comixology's site saying where each Marvel series is at, listing what series are starting new arcs and what series are starting new runs and where to jump in?

This is so simple, it's brilliant.

[CrazyOldHermit]

I really love all the fans who get so unbelievably hung up on numbering. I just can't grasp why it's such a big issue. It has no real effect on the quality of the stories. So Gillen's Iron Man starts at #1 instead of #530 or whatever it is. So what? I doubt it had any impact on the substance of Gillen's script.

All the nonsense is generated by anal fans aggravated by the fact that their longboxes aren't as beautifully organized and sequenced as they'd like. Seriously, who cares? All that matters is whether the stories are good. I'm in it for art and narrative, not for longbox organization and staring at a big number and giggling at the thought that this book has been running for decades.

You can be in it for both you know.

[peedi]

Seriously, who cares?

Apparently a lot of people.

[CrazyOldHermit]

I think it's worth noting that Marvel was terrible with numbering early on as well, except for the opposite reason: Instead of relaunching titles with new #1s they would just rename titles and keep going. In Walt Simonson's Thor run there were two 300th issue anniversary issues, one for the 300th issue of the series (going back to the Journey into Mystery days) and one for the 300th issue starring Thor.

[Pixie_Solanas]

I really love all the fans who get so unbelievably hung up on numbering. I just can't grasp why it's such a big issue. It has no real effect on the quality of the stories. So Gillen's Iron Man starts at #1 instead of #530 or whatever it is. So what? I doubt it had any impact on the substance of Gillen's script.

All the nonsense is generated by anal fans aggravated by the fact that their longboxes aren't as beautifully organized and sequenced as they'd like. Seriously, who cares? All that matters is whether the stories are good. I'm in it for art and narrative, not for longbox organization and staring at a big number and giggling at the thought that this book has been running for decades.

How very smug. Please read between the lines. This isnt about renumbering, its about the idea that marvel has to keep doing a megalaunch on books to keep that mystical new reader audience appeased. What's next, 6 issues ( enough for a trade) and then onto the next big marketing shill? Even less? Good luck getting any sort of consistent stories at that point.

It really has nothing to do with the actual numbering. Its the concept that books have to screech to a grinding halt (including books of quality like Gillen's Uncanny or Wood's X-men) just to accomodate the next marketing spectacle that Marvel thinks we all need.

[SJNeal]

It really has nothing to do with the actual numbering. Its the concept that books have to screech to a grinding halt (including books of quality like Gillen's Uncanny or Wood's X-men) just to accomodate the next marketing spectacle that Marvel thinks we all need.

*Raises glass*