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  1. #196

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    Quote Originally Posted by babydave View Post
    Yes, they are. See nearly every post by a creator that complains about the number of downloads their work is getting.
    Anyone who claims they can definitively calculate all pirated copies is wrong. If you find one site that keeps track then there are likely 10 that do not.

  2. #197
    Senior Member DaronK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Broome View Post
    I hope you meant "you're touting" and if so I hope you don't teach English haha.
    Ha thanks! That's what I get for not looking back over my post before...posting it. Fixed

  3. #198

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Marz View Post
    There you go.
    *claps enthusiastically*

    Well played, Mr. Marz. Well played.

  4. #199
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    You know what else is like a library? Liquor stores.

  5. #200
    New Member Caped Crusader's Avatar
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    Even though Mr. Busiek touched on it already...

    Quote Originally Posted by babydave View Post
    Your contempt for library patrons is shocking and noted. What a grump.
    The glaringly obvious difference you've failed to grasp is that library patrons pay for the material they consume. Libraries are public entities funded by their local communities through fees and taxes. Who pays those fees and taxes? The same citizens who use the library. All content in a library is legally obtained community property, and those who take advantage of the services offered have already paid to do so.

    I know, I know. Fact and reality can be so horribly inconvenient to an entitlement-driven argument.

  6. #201
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    When I pirate (which is almost daily), it's a calculation based on availability, cost, cost to the artist, and what I rather esoterically refer to as "fairness".

    To wit:
    I have a hacked Netflix account. I pay nothing for its use, and have access to 100s of movies, high-quality streaming with no advertisements. Why? 1) There are no video rental locations left in Canada. 2) The revenue stream for classic movies, which are largely what I watch, is insignificant for their copyright owners. Watching "On the Waterfront" on Netflix means taking pennies from Columbia Pictures. Elia Kazan (or his granddaughter Zoe!) certainly don't care.

    I also torrent albums. Why? 1) The purchase price for new CDs or MP3 downloads I still consider too high, especially when I don't know the music yet. 2) These albums still sell in significant quantities anyway, and the artists make money off concerts, that I don't feel bad about listening for free.

    Oh, and here's the kicker: when I do spend money on entertainment, it's always to purchase used, which represents ZERO profit for the copyright owner anyway. Next thing you know, Ron Marz is going to start telling us buying used records is not okay either.

    Holy crap. This guy. These guys. I expected this article to cause some discomfort out there, but I'm astonished that these guys are so shameless about their theft that they actually got on here to say "stealing is a good thing, here's why."

    Hey, "That Guy": Hacking Netflix is justified because your local rental stores went under? They went under because of the emergence of digital download and Amazon. You couldn't actually pay for Netflix? It's way cheaper than those rental stores you seem to miss so much. Practically pennies, like you said, but yours and not someone else's.

    Hey, "That Guy": you steal albums because "[you] don't know the music yet"? Even been to iTunes, or Amazon mp3 store? They have these free sample thingies. You get to hear the song first, before you BUY them for practically nothing. (A lot of comic sites also show several-page previews, which I imagine you know.) We used to have to buy an entire CD to get the one or two songs we liked. Now we buy only the songs we want, for a buck-and-change a pop. And the argument that you think "the purchase price [is] too high"? I don't even know what to say to such a pathetic argument, but I'll try: You know what else is too expensive? An 80-inch LED-LCD TV. They're sweet, though. I'd definitely love to have one. And I do know a guy that works at CostCo. I could afford to just buy the thing if I wanted to, but I know they're charging a lot more to the consumer than it costs to make one of those things, and I don't think I should have to pay it. Especially since I don't really know how well it works yet, not without owning it first. Obviously, my only recourse is to steal it.

    Actually, there's another option. Reconstruct your self-respect and go without. And if you don't at least have the scrap of character it takes to be ashamed of being a thief: keep it to yourself.

  7. #202

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    Quote Originally Posted by matthew dow smith View Post
    I draw comics for a living. Been doing it a while now. 18 years. I live for it. I love it. People like you? You make me not want to make comics.
    Quote Originally Posted by matthew dow smith View Post
    And if the readership was made up of nothing but people who believed they could take any comic they wanted, read them, and then only pay for the ones they liked, you and others like you would have a whole lot less to read.
    See, I don't understand how you can think this. Why should I pay for something I didn't like? I go to a restaurant and order a steak. They don't make it the way I don't like, I don't pay. Simple as that. Just because they make me a steak and I eat it doesn't mean they're entitled to get paid; there are two people in the transaction.

    I say again: whether it's a comic book or a car, just because you create something, doesn't mean what you create has any value to anyone besides you.

  8. #203
    Senior Member Steve Broome's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CKdoubleU View Post
    See, I don't understand how you can think this. Why should I pay for something I didn't like? I go to a restaurant and order a steak. They don't make it the way I don't like, I don't pay. Simple as that.
    lmao the most simple way to describe your attitude is "bratty" but you probably feel you're way more complex and advanced in your understanding of the "new world" than that.

    I venture to say the restaurant folks don't like you either, BTW.

  9. #204
    Senior Member DaronK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CKdoubleU View Post
    I go to a restaurant and order a steak. They don't make it the way I don't like, I don't pay. Simple as that. Just because they make me a steak and I eat it doesn't mean they're entitled to get paid; there are two people in the transaction.

    I say again: whether it's a comic book or a car, just because you create something, doesn't mean what you create has any value to anyone besides you.
    If you eat the stake your agreeing to the transaction. You've accepted the product and therefor you have to pay for it. If, however, you try the steak and it's bad you can send it back for another, and you only pay for the second one that comes. Or I guess at that point you can leave without eating anything. Once you've eaten the steak, you've agreed to pay for it. That's how it works. Not paying for it after eating it is called stealing. My 4 year-old daughter understands this. If you honestly don't, I really worry about the future of our society. I'm betting you're just trolling, though.

    The comic equivalent to this is to go into a shop flip through the comic to see if you want to buy it, or check out the free previews online. Downloading the thing wholesale is NOT.

    And you're absolutely right about your last point, just because an artist creates something doesn't entitle them to anything, Ron already agreed about that. HOWEVER, as soon as you consume said product that artist IS entitled to be paid for it. That's the bargain.

  10. #205

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    Quote Originally Posted by PhillipKJohnson View Post
    You know what else is too expensive? An 80-inch LED-LCD TV. They're sweet, though. I'd definitely love to have one. And I do know a guy that works at CostCo. I could afford to just buy the thing if I wanted to, but I know they're charging a lot more to the consumer than it costs to make one of those things, and I don't think I should have to pay it. Especially since I don't really know how well it works yet, not without owning it first. Obviously, my only recourse is to steal it.
    Or you could have your friend "sell" you the TV for pennies on the dollar, feel bad about it (but keep it anyway, 'cause you know... it's not really stealing), then use it as a topic for an article years later about how you "really learned something that day."


    People make mistakes in their youth, and this week Ron Marz looks back at one instance that still haunts him -- the time he almost stole -- and explains his thoughts on piracy.
    This needs to be changed; please remove the 'almost'.

  11. #206

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaronK View Post
    And you're absolutely right about your last point, just because an artist creates something doesn't entitle them to anything, Ron already agreed about that. HOWEVER, as soon as you consume said product that artist IS entitled to be paid for it. That's the bargain.
    I consume art every day; just because I view it doesn't mean I'm required to pay for it.

  12. #207
    Senior Member DaronK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CKdoubleU View Post
    I consume art every day; just because I view it doesn't mean I'm required to pay for it.
    Which is kind of the point being made...you should be paying for it.

  13. #208

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    Quote Originally Posted by CKdoubleU View Post
    I consume art every day; just because I view it doesn't mean I'm required to pay for it.
    Assuming you're sticking to the discussion and referring to reading comics that your are legally required to pay for, then you are obviously mistaken.

  14. #209
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babydave View Post
    Your contempt for library patrons is shocking and noted. What a grump.
    Libraries pay for the book/e-book and for the rights to distribute/lend that book.

    Taxes pay for libraries.

    Therefore, I have paid for the privilege to borrow books from the library. They're paid for, in part, by me.

    You are a thief. You do not pay in any way, shape or form for the things you steal. In fact, torrent sites are for profit as they generate revenue from advertising, so you are stealing as well as aiding and abetting the distributor by 'viewing' (not necessarily reading) the advertising on those sites.

    The library comparison is ridiculous. The 'an artist doesn't deserve money for what they create' is bullshit. If you care enough to download it to read it then you, like the rest of us, should pay for it. Simple as that.

    I realize this may be too complicated for some of you to follow, but it's not only ethical but it's the law.

    Quote Originally Posted by CKdoubleU View Post
    See, I don't understand how you can think this. Why should I pay for something I didn't like? I go to a restaurant and order a steak. They don't make it the way I don't like, I don't pay. Simple as that. Just because they make me a steak and I eat it doesn't mean they're entitled to get paid; there are two people in the transaction.

    I say again: whether it's a comic book or a car, just because you create something, doesn't mean what you create has any value to anyone besides you.
    You TRIED the steak, you DIDN'T consume it, so you get a replacement.

    All well and legal.

    Now find me a restaurant that will let you consume the entire meal without complaint who will then allow you to leave without paying for it because you decided after that you didn't like it.

    <crickets>

    You test drive a car. You don't get to take it, use it til you're done and then claim you didn't like how it drives so therefore you don't have to pay for it.

    You can sample a lot of comic pages online legally with previews, or you can go to a comic shop and flip through a book to see if it interests you.

    I swear sometimes you guys are intentionally being argumentative for the sake of justifying your illegal and immoral behavior.

  15. #210
    CBR Mod/WW Section Mom Gaelforce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CKdoubleU View Post
    I consume art every day; just because I view it doesn't mean I'm required to pay for it.
    Provided you're not referring to stealing, then you're referring to a choice made by the artist to either (a) make their art public or (b) sell their art to someone with the right for them to distribute it as per their contract.

    Artist's choice to share/sell, not your choice to steal.

    It really isn't that complicated.

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