Page 13 of 17 FirstFirst ... 391011121314151617 LastLast
Results 181 to 195 of 244
  1. #181
    Don't do the Limbo sunofdarkchild's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    3,985

    Default

    A person with absolutely no motivation can still be a soldier. A person who has never seen a day of combat in his life can still be a soldier. A person with no motivation and no experience in combat situations can still be a soldier.

    Why? Because such a person can still be part of an army. This situation has arisen countless times throughout history.

    If a cause and the act of fighting are not the central parts of being a soldier, how can only possessing those two traits be enough to make one a soldier?

    Oh, come on. Of course rubbing it in the face of the guy you are causing to die is sadistic, as is the very fact that he enjoyed killing the guy. It is exactly the sort of thing Light Yagami does on a regular basis just so the plot can show how evil and egotistical he is.

  2. #182

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    A person with absolutely no motivation can still be a soldier. A person who has never seen a day of combat in his life can still be a soldier. A person with no motivation and no experience in combat situations can still be a soldier.

    Why? Because such a person can still be part of an army. This situation has arisen countless times throughout history.
    Just because you're part of an Army doesn't mean one is a Soldier.

    King Leonidas: You there, what is your profession?
    Free Greek-Potter: I am a potter... sir.
    King Leonidas: [points to another soldier] And you, Arcadian, what is your profession?
    Free Greek-Sculptor: Sculptor, sir.
    King Leonidas: Sculptor.
    [turns to a third soldier]
    King Leonidas: You?
    Free Greek-Blacksmith: Blacksmith.
    King Leonidas: [turns back shouting] Spartans! What is your profession?
    Spartans: WAR! WAR! WAR!
    King Leonidas: [turning to Daxos] You see, old friend? I brought more soldiers than you did.
    Be careful when speaking. You create the world around you with your words.

  3. #183

    Default

    Oh, come on. Of course rubbing it in the face of the guy you are causing to die is sadistic, as is the very fact that he enjoyed killing the guy. It is exactly the sort of thing Light Yagami does on a regular basis just so the plot can show how evil and egotistical he is.
    Where's the line on that? Is making fun of a kid's disability in a school house sadistic, too, for example?
    Be careful when speaking. You create the world around you with your words.

  4. #184
    Elder Member The Batman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Otisburg, USA.
    Posts
    10,131

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Thompson View Post
    Where's the line on that? Is making fun of a kid's disability in a school house sadistic, too, for example?
    Well, all those jokes while he's beating people up makes Spider-Man a sadistic monster.

  5. #185

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Batman View Post
    Well, all those jokes while he's beating people up makes Spider-Man a sadistic monster.
    Evidently.
    Be careful when speaking. You create the world around you with your words.

  6. #186
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,004

    Default

    How is it "misunderstood"? Was there some masterful subtle meaningful message behind it all? It was just Tim Burton being a wierdo and making a movie out of it. Some people dig the wierdness (I think it's a fun nonsensical elseworlds tale) others don't. It's really that simple. It is less bland as the original.

  7. #187
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,808

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by flamemasterelan View Post
    Actually, it was just thrown into the plot because the writers couldn't think of anything better to do. It was apparently either that, or Penguin tries to freeze all of Gotham. They didn't really come up with a proper story arc for Penguin, and needed something "world threatening" for the climax, so that had to do.
    Interesting. I heard that at one version the Max Shreck character was going to be Harvey Dent on the verge of becoming Two Face, but that did not work out. I assume that in 1992 Penguin seemed like a much more bankable villain (I remember a lot of comments about how Tommy Lee Jones was the first actor to play Two Face when Batman Forever came out, despite the fact that Billy Dee Williams played Harvey Dent in the previous film). But they always wanted Catwoman to have a relationship with shifting allegiances with the other villain and bent things around that. In some future story I would like a Catwoman/Two Face mess. They both highlight some of the ridiculous aspects of Batman's moral absolutism.

    I like the film. The plot leaves something to be desired, but I love the dialogue and atmosphere.

  8. #188
    Mattress Tester T Hedge Coke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    www.futureearthmagazine.com
    Posts
    10,536

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by LostinFandom View Post
    Interesting. I heard that at one version the Max Shreck character was going to be Harvey Dent on the verge of becoming Two Face, but that did not work out. I assume that in 1992 Penguin seemed like a much more bankable villain (I remember a lot of comments about how Tommy Lee Jones was the first actor to play Two Face when Batman Forever came out, despite the fact that Billy Dee Williams played Harvey Dent in the previous film). But they always wanted Catwoman to have a relationship with shifting allegiances with the other villain and bent things around that. In some future story I would like a Catwoman/Two Face mess. They both highlight some of the ridiculous aspects of Batman's moral absolutism.

    I like the film. The plot leaves something to be desired, but I love the dialogue and atmosphere.
    It's not a plot-based film, and I don't think it ever pretended to be. Hella good movie, though.

    And, yeah, they contracted Billy Dee Williams to continue as Dent and had to buy him out to avoid gasp! shudder! horror! a black Two-Face, which necessitated turning the role written for him into Shreck, which leads to the inevitable oddity of the Penguin's and Shreck's plans being all about politics not industrialism or whatever, since Shreck isn't politically-linked to the degree Dent would've been.

  9. #189
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    The Real Smallville
    Posts
    867

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquacatlungfish View Post
    How is it "misunderstood"? Was there some masterful subtle meaningful message behind it all? It was just Tim Burton being a wierdo and making a movie out of it. Some people dig the wierdness (I think it's a fun nonsensical elseworlds tale) others don't. It's really that simple. It is less bland as the original.
    Well...actually...
    http://therealsmallville.blogspot.co...-1992.html?m=1

  10. #190
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,004

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ForeverYoung8 View Post
    Well... actually... no. There wasn't. It was just some guy who thought that some mildly wierd sh!t was cool, it's a mindless affair that can be enjoyable when you appritiate it for what it's worth. Nothing but cool visuals and notverywierdbutkindaifyou'veneverexperiencedrealwi erdness type of wierdness.

  11. #191
    Mattress Tester T Hedge Coke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    www.futureearthmagazine.com
    Posts
    10,536

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquacatlungfish View Post
    Well... actually... no. There wasn't. It was just some guy who thought that some mildly wierd sh!t was cool, it's a mindless affair that can be enjoyable when you appritiate it for what it's worth. Nothing but cool visuals and notverywierdbutkindaifyou'veneverexperiencedrealwi erdness type of wierdness.
    It's not a plot-based movie, but it's got a narrative, it has identifiable characters with identifiable arcs, and yes, there are noticeable themes.

    You don't have to like them. You don't have to agree with them. You don't even have to think they were executed well. But, to pretend they aren't there at all and it's "just some guy... mildly weird shit... mindless affair... cool visuals and notveryweirdbutkindaifyou'veneverex..." is just silly.

  12. #192
    BANNED
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    1,004

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by T Hedge Coke View Post
    It's not a plot-based movie, but it's got a narrative, it has identifiable characters with identifiable arcs, and yes, there are noticeable themes.

    You don't have to like them. You don't have to agree with them. You don't even have to think they were executed well. But, to pretend they aren't there at all and it's "just some guy... mildly weird shit... mindless affair... cool visuals and notveryweirdbutkindaifyou'veneverex..." is just silly.
    The themes aren't very good. The arcs and aren't very good and the characters are shallow and sometimes act without reason, I really wouldn't say it was misunderstood at all. Just people didn't like it being too violent and comic book fans didn't appreciate butchering everything about Batman. The best of the original 4 but that isn't saying much at all and it's not even a millionth as good as any of the Nolan films.

  13. #193
    Mattress Tester T Hedge Coke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    www.futureearthmagazine.com
    Posts
    10,536

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquacatlungfish View Post
    The themes aren't very good. The arcs and aren't very good and the characters are shallow and sometimes act without reason, I really wouldn't say it was misunderstood at all. Just people didn't like it being too violent and comic book fans didn't appreciate butchering everything about Batman. The best of the original 4 but that isn't saying much at all and it's not even a millionth as good as any of the Nolan films.
    I'd flip that around and argue it fiercely, but I can't be bothered.

    I may put Returns on and watch it again, though.

  14. #194
    Elder Member The Batman's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Otisburg, USA.
    Posts
    10,131

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by T Hedge Coke View Post
    I'd flip that around and argue it fiercely, but I can't be bothered.

    I may put Returns on and watch it again, though.
    Solid call. And really, you got things from "It's just a bunch of stuff tossed together with no rhyme or reason for weirdness' sake" to "sure there was a plot and themes, but I just didn't like them" and that might just be well enough.

  15. #195
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    The Real Smallville
    Posts
    867

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aquacatlungfish View Post
    Well... actually... no. There wasn't. It was just some guy who thought that some mildly wierd sh!t was cool, it's a mindless affair that can be enjoyable when you appritiate it for what it's worth. Nothing but cool visuals and notverywierdbutkindaifyou'veneverexperiencedrealwi erdness type of wierdness.
    I wouldn't call Bruce Wayne's character arc a "mindless affair". Obviously it's not as deep as Nolan's story, but it was never intended to be a thesis on the (super)human condition. Wayne begins the film getting kicks out of lighting cronies on fire, has zero interest in the holidays, as spends his free time sitting in the dark. During the film he meets 3 reflections, much like Scrooge met the 3 ghosts:

    • Penguin represents Wayne's past. Both orphaned by terrible circumstances, coping in the only way they know how, Penguin represents what Wayne *could* have been (and in some ways, he actually is--Batman does not discriminate when it comes to killing time).

    • Catwoman represents Wayne's present. Selina has gone absolutely bonkers (like this version of Wayne?) following her accident. Earlier that night, she witnessed Batman in person. He inspired her, in some ways, to put on a costume. In her, Wayne sees what he has become.

    • Shreck represents Wayne's future. He is the possible end-result of what Wayne could become if he continues down his dark path.

    Much like Scrooge, Wayne learns the value of life after his encounters. Notice how he tells Schreck "You're going to jail." That's a big change from telling Joker "I'm going to kill you", or throwing the strongman down a manhole with a bomb in his pants. Contrast all that with his plea to Selina about going home with him, where they can be together. This is now a man who doesn't want to sit alone in the dark anymore.

    And then at the end he tells Alfred "Merry Christmas". That's a character arc. And with "Batman Forever" slightly referencing "Returns", this theme is carried forward with Bruce telling Dick how killing doesn't solve anything.

    So, the thread title asks if Batman Returns is misunderstood...I'd say the answer is a resounding 'yes', because clearly if you say it's mindless and just weird, then you misunderstood it.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •