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  1. #46
    Bishop was right. Sighphi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USERNAME TAKEN View Post
    Comparing the industry of 2012 to the industry decades ago isn't going to aid this debate. Comics were cheaper, the fan base younger, distribution was different and there weren't as many competing forms of entertainment (when I was growing up, kids read comics, my younger brother who's in his 20s can't stand to look at them).
    So because there is more competition you ..... give LESS choices of what a possible reader can pick up?

    Until sometime last year, Marvel was publishing a good number of b-list titles but people simply didn't buy them. If fans are rejecting titles that are perceived as good, I really don't know what can be done. This isn't limited to Marvel though, the DC dark line has some excellent titles but as i said before, they don't sell too well because people want their Batman, Superman and Justice League (it's no coincidence that the best selling dark title has "Justice League" in it's title).
    The franchise era didnt start last year. And, again, when you push the main stuff and just leave the other books to sell themselves they arent going to be tremendous sales at the start.

    Hell, a couple of years ago when Doctor Voodoo, SWORD, and some other lower list character had their books out those were dead before they even got to the stores because comic stores didnt care to make big orders. Why? Cause it's all about the "Next Big Thing" and everything else just gets scraps. When a book gets cancelled before an issue hits the stands, before a reader picks up an issue, you know the system is messed up.

  2. #47
    Elder Member whiteshark's Avatar
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    Just as Marvel makes lots of Avengers titles so does DC makes a lot of Batman related titles.
    Nobody can expect diferent comic book companies to have similiar comic book lines.
    There is a focus in popular franchises at marvel and besides that there are titles which are a proof that marvel comics as are diverse as Captain Marvel,Infernal Man Thing,Space Punisher,Fury Max...
    Pull List:New Avengers,Thor,Superior Spider-Man,Mighty Avengers,Swamp Thing,Daredevil,Uncanny Avengers,Superior Foes of Spider-Man.

  3. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    Just as Marvel makes lots of Avengers titles so does DC makes a lot of Batman related titles.
    Nobody can expect diferent comic book companies to have similiar comic book lines.
    There is a focus in popular franchises at marvel and besides that there are titles which are a proof that marvel comics as are diverse as Captain Marvel,Infernal Man Thing,Space Punisher,Fury Max...
    Infernal Man-Thing and Space Punisher are minis. We're not talking about those. Fury MAX is not Earth-616 so again, it's not the focus of this thread.



    Now whoever is using the whole "there are more of those titles because they sell well" argument should abandon that because we ALL know that from a business standpoint, it makes sense for Marvel to release many books with the word "Avengers" or the letter "X" on it. This has nothing to do with the BUSINESS end of things but more with the creative and diversity or lack thereof.

    We know that Hickman's Avengers will feature 18 members. Obviously most of the cast will be lesser known heroes who will "get their chance to shine". BUT, the issue there is that they'll be used in an Avengers capacity. It won't be the individual or a specific team book with its own identity.

    And the key is nothing other than marketing to me. Sure, Punisher gets his own title. Sure, Black Panther does as well. So do so many others. But if they were given a little more of a marketing push, they'd probably stick around longer, which would help diversify Marvel's shelf. No, I don't think an Elektra book should be pushed to Avengers level, but she does deserve more than just a blurb here and there that a new "ongoing" series will debut soon.

    Which is what I mean by Marvel narrowing its focus on Avengers and X-Men. They are not giving other themes their chance to really succeed long-term.

  4. #49
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    They publish more titles in a week than a month in the 80s. They sell less of them, so they cost more and they pretty are down to just having the die-hards who get everything Avengers or X-Men to buy multiple issues to keep the dollars up. Some months they were putting out like four Hulk related comics alone. Since there are double digit X-men or Avengers or Batman titles out there, quite a few readers just don't move out to try something else, especially when single issues cost 3-4 bucks a pop and there is no guarantee that they will ever really get to go anywhere.

    I think the telling thing is that they tried the Punisher and Moon Knight with teams that would have sold some comics a few years ago and neither one made it past 12 issues. Daredevil is going to make it, but that character has more of a following and one of the better back lists of trades in all of Marvel comics, so there are some new readers picking up on the character all the time.

  5. #50
    Veteran Member Hypestyle's Avatar
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    it's par for the current course.. gradually merging all the characters into one faction or the other at least nominally helps with cross-marketing whenever it comes to that.. spider-man's been an Avenger for some time now.. Alpha Flight's northstar is with the X-Men again, etc.

    I still want diversity for other themes and subgenres.. the "street hero" world is neglected; same goes for the horror-hero and/or mystic adventurer.. cosmic is getting another push, via Avengers Assembled..

  6. #51
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    I'm not against diversity in comics, however, I strongly reject this notion that fans don't buy lower selling titles because Marvel doesn't tell them too. In the 90s there were multiple X-titles and Spider-man titles, this never stopped titles like Sleepwalker, Darkhawk and Punisher from being successful (Punisher actually had multiple titles in the 90s). I really don't know what special publicity Marvel will shine on these titles to make them sell (Ghost Rider spun out of Fear Itself and X-23 was heavily tied into the X-corner of the universe.

    I refuse to believe that there's any regular Marvel fan that missed out on the announcement of new Daredevil and Punisher series, same with Captain Marvel, X-23, Ghost Rider and Daken. Like i've said earlier, the only way these titles will succeed is if people actually put their money where the mouths are and bought these damn titles. A lot of folks complain about how Marvel events are crap but these same folk come on here and discuss them at length. Instead of buying AVX and complaining about it, why not pick up Daredevil or Punisher or Journey into Mystery or even Winter Soldier (a book i really, really love) and discuss them here at length?
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  7. #52
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    I think Marvel has focused their lines for a couple of reasons....

    1. Marvel has to take a business over art approach. I think their late nineties bankruptcy scare really gave them a new perspective, and they figured out that have to gain stability and survive, follow trends, and make comic books with high ratios of success. They realized the glory days of Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman artistic comics were good to read, but not reliant money makers. So they took up a cut-throat type policy when it came to titles, a policy which is still around today. I feel that Marvel is really quick (too quick) when to comes to canning titles, if they even smell a possible failure they pull the plug. In contrast, DC right now is STILL trying to push some titles that frankly we knew would fail right out of the gate. I think alot of ideas get brought up at Marvel, but are shot down before we even hear about them. Simply because they don't have the projections that Marvel can guarantee.

    2. DC fans have a select group of characters that their fans seem to agree on liking. Marvel fans seem to be spread a bit thinner. While DC fans usually agree that the JLA and handful of other characters are their favorites, Marvel fans are spread thin on who "their" favorites are. We have people who are die hard Spiderwoman fans, Runaways fans, Quicksilver fans etc. While DC has a few larger groups, Marvel has more "cult" followings for a plethora of characters. This makes it difficult for anyone to agree on who "deserves" to get the next ongoing. Marvel has to take take interest levels and fanbases into account (look at #1). If I were to ask "who should get their next ongoing" we would get 100 different answers here. Go over to DC forums and there are a couple that really stand out - ex Shazam. In response, Marvel makes the decision to try and make everyone happy and simply put them onto teams. The two biggest being Avengers and X-men. Thats why we have such large rosters on both of them, to make everyone happy.

    3. Independent companies are stepping up the game to pick up the slack of reading alternate stories. Back in the day, if I wanted to read a book about guns, crime, and violence - I had to read the Punisher, and it was in the Marvel Universe. If I wanted a Western book; Rawhide kid. Or a military book; Nick Fury and the Howling Commandos etc. All of these happened to still be in the Marvel 616. However Image & Vertigo put out great titles that suck up these alternate tastes and the creators have more freedom to tell great stories that aren't burdened with continuity or stepping on toes or fitting into an event.

    In the end I think they are more focused but not too focused. I feel that Marvel still tries to put out new stuff in a reasonable fashion and I feel that Marvel's current state is creating a bit of worry because they are announcing alot of their core titles. Once they get their main stuff in order and released I'm sure we will see more "extras" come out.
    Last edited by nsiops; 08-07-2012 at 07:27 AM.
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  8. #53
    THE SUPERIOR MEMBER! USERNAME TAKEN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nsiops View Post
    I think Marvel has focused their lines for a couple of reasons....

    1. Marvel has to take a business over art approach. I think their late nineties bankruptcy scare really gave them a new perspective, and they figured out that have to gain stability and survive, follow trends, and make comic books with high ratios of success. They realized the glory days of Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman artistic comics were good to read, but not reliant money makers. So they took up a cut-throat type policy when it came to titles, a policy which is still around today. I feel that Marvel is really quick (too quick) when to comes to canning titles, if they even smell a possible failure they pull the plug.In contrast,DC right now is STILL trying to push some titles that frankly we knew would fail right out of the gate. I think alot of ideas get brought up at Marvel, but are shot down before we even hear about them. Simply because they don't have the projections that Marvel can guarantee.

    2. DC fans have a select group of characters that their fans seem to agree on liking. Marvel fans seem to be spread a bit thinner. While DC fans usually agree that the JLA and handful of other characters are their favorites, Marvel fans are spread thin on who "their" favorites are. We have people who are die hard Spiderwoman fans, Runaways fans, Quicksilver fans etc. While DC has few larger groups, Marvel has more "cult" followings for a plethora of characters. This makes it difficult for anyone to agree on who "deserves" to get the next ongoing. Marvel has to take take interest levels and fanbases into account (look at #1). If I were to ask "who should get their next ongoing" we would get 100 different answers here. Go over to DC forums and there are a couple that really stand out - ex Shazam. In response, Marvel makes the decision to try and make everyone happy and simply put them onto teams. The two biggest being Avengers and X-men. Thats why we have such large rosters on both of them, to make everyone happy.

    3. Independent companies are stepping up the game to pick up the slack of reading alternate stories. Back in the day, if I wanted to read a book about guns, crime, and violence - I had to read the Punisher, and it was in the Marvel Universe. If I wanted a Western book; Rawhide kid. Or a military book; Nick Fury and the Howling Commandos etc. All of these happened to still be in the Marvel 616. However Image & Vertigo put out great titles that suck up these alternate tastes and the creators have more freedom to tell great stories that aren't burdened with continuity or stepping on toes or fitting into an event.

    In the end I think they are more focused but not too focused. I feel that Marvel still tries to put out new stuff in a reasonable fashion and I feel that Marvel's current state is creating a bit of worry because they are announcing alot of their core titles. Once they get their main stuff in order and released I'm sure we will see more "extras" come out.
    Good points.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  9. #54
    Senior Member FIFTY-TWO (52)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteshark View Post
    Just as Marvel makes lots of Avengers titles so does DC makes a lot of Batman related titles.
    Nobody can expect diferent comic book companies to have similiar comic book lines.
    There is a focus in popular franchises at marvel and besides that there are titles which are a proof that marvel comics as are diverse as Captain Marvel,Infernal Man Thing,Space Punisher,Fury Max...
    I think the point is that you don't have to read a single Batman book in the DCU and still have plenty of DC books to read.
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIFTY-TWO (52) View Post
    I think the point is that you don't have to read a single Batman book in the DCU and still have plenty of DC books to read.
    Its like that everywhere.

    Unless you're somehow suggesting that Marvel don't have titles outside Avengers and X-men.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  11. #56
    Senior Member FIFTY-TWO (52)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by USERNAME TAKEN View Post
    Its like that everywhere.

    Unless you're somehow suggesting that Marvel don't have titles outside Avengers and X-men.
    No, there's a crapload of Spider-man books.
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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by FIFTY-TWO (52) View Post
    No, there's a crapload of Spider-man books.
    Avenging Spider-man and Amazing Spider-man is a crap load of Spider-man books???

    Puh-leeze!

    Even throwing in Ultimate Spider-man isn't a crap load.

    Marvel still have Journey into Mystery, Winter Soldier and Daredevil if you don't want X-men or Avengers.

    You could even try Fantastic Four or FF for something different too.
    Last edited by USERNAME TAKEN; 08-07-2012 at 01:02 AM.
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

  13. #58
    Senior Member babybro's Avatar
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    Well definitely, one of the biggest reasons why I barely read any marvel books is due to this primary fact that it' almost entirely avengers and xmen driven. But at the same time, I do not blame them much, a little yes, but most of the blame just falls on the current demographic only focusing on these two properties. While DC does offer a hella lot more diversity in racial characters (something I would never imagine myself saying), female character books, b-c list books, and genre books, many of these book on dc side are on the low selling side of the equation, with more and more minority books, different genre books and etc being cancelled due to low sales.

    It just sucks cause little by little, I'm being pushed out of the big 2. Thought fortunately I write my own comics so that' where I generate most of my energy towards, but if I didn't
    have the creative ability to make my own comics I would be extremely mad at the current stage of comics.
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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by MuhollandDriver View Post
    They are dark.

    Edge line is more military/guns/street level.
    Edge is former Wildstorm characters, Dark is former Vertigo characters.

    Justice League Dark doing well probably has more to do with John Constantine than with the JL soubriquette. JL International was canceled rather quickly, right?
    Last edited by carabas; 08-07-2012 at 01:20 AM.
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  15. #60
    THE SUPERIOR MEMBER! USERNAME TAKEN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by babybro View Post
    Well definitely, one of the biggest reasons why I barely read any marvel books is due to this primary fact that it' almost entirely avengers and xmen driven. But at the same time, I do not blame them much, a little yes, but most of the blame just falls on the current demographic only focusing on these two properties. While DC does offer a hella lot more diversity in racial characters (something I would never imagine myself saying), female character books, b-c list books, and genre books, many of these book on dc side are on the low selling side of the equation, with more and more minority books, different genre books and etc being cancelled due to low sales.

    It just sucks cause little by little, I'm being pushed out of the big 2. Thought fortunately I write my own comics so that' where I generate most of my energy towards, but if I didn't
    have the creative ability to make my own comics I would be extremely mad at the current stage of comics.
    I actually asked Alonso about the future of minority characters in Marvel NOW and he didn't give me a straight answer.

    It was really disappointing because this would be the perfect opportunity to get more minority led Marvel titles out there. That being said, the only minority led title that's doing above 40k is Ultimate Spider-man which is really, really disappointing (i suspect the only reason that title has remained as steady as it has it because of the Spider-man in its title).
    Adults struggle desperately with fiction, demanding constantly that it conform to the rules of everyday life when the answer is obvious to the smallest child: because it's not real. - Grant Morrison

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