I LOVE Double-Shipping!

[Ari Gold]

Captain America and Hulk arent as popular as Spider-man and Wolverine

Nor as popular as Batgirl & Batwoman either apparently. And the fact that they start with a "Bat" in the title is like saying if Storm or Spider-Girl had a solo title they'd be top 30 books . . .

And the point is that DC's environment can support titles like Swamp Thing & Animal Man at the same levels of Marvel's Capt. America & Hulk. That can't happen in Marvel's current lineup.

They don't? 'Cause all I've heard is about how Captain America is under the Avengers franchise, which I'll loosely agree with.

Not from me you haven't. When I talk about swallowing up Franchises I don't include Avengers solo series (Iron Man, Thor, Capt. America, etc.) under the Avengers franchise. I don't think they are the same.

[Chiasm]

Marvel produces more comics that are popular as Avengers just as DC produces plenty of Batman related titles.
It is not marvel fault if people dont buy enough quantities of other underdogs titles.

And saying that titles as Thor,Captain America are Avengers titles is over generalizing these titles.
Then one might as well say that the Batman titles,Flash,Super Man,Wonder Woman titles are justice league titles as well.
Titles as Thor have nothing to do with the Avengers stories,except thor being a avenger.

As always your missing the point.

Nova, GotG, Captain Britain and the rest all fell to cancellation level because of $3.99 and double shipping. Oh they were never top sellers but they were doing okay. Then when readers were forced to make a choice they chose the big gun titles. Great for fans of those books, not so great for fans of the smaller books.

To put it another way look at DC where they don't double ship but imagine if they did. Do you really think critically acclaimed books like Animal Man, Justice League Dark, and Swamp Thing would survive if the four Batman titles, the three GL titles, Justice League, and the Superman titles all double shipped? A lot of readers would have to choose between the double shipped stuff or dropping the other titles. You would see the three titles I mention slip into cancellation range.

[USERNAME TAKEN]

[QUOTE=Kylun123;15663321]Nor as popular as Batgirl & Batwoman either apparently. And the fact that they start with a "Bat" in the title is like saying if Storm or Spider-Girl had a solo title they'd be top 30 books . . .

And the point is that DC's environment can support titles like Swamp Thing & Animal Man at the same levels of Marvel's Capt. America & Hulk. That can't happen in Marvel's current lineup.



Not from me you haven't. When I talk about swallowing up Franchises I don't include Avengers solo series (Iron Man, Thor, Capt. America, etc.) under the Avengers franchise. I don't think they are the same.[/

What do Batgirl and Batwoman have to do with this discussion??

We were discussing the most popular titles from each company selling more than others which is exactly what's happening.

[CyberHubbs]

As always your missing the point.

Nova, GotG, Captain Britain and the rest all fell to cancellation level because of $3.99 and double shipping. Oh they were never top sellers but they were doing okay. Then when readers were forced to make a choice they chose the big gun titles. Great for fans of those books, not so great for fans of the smaller books.

To put it another way look at DC where they don't double ship but imagine if they did. Do you really think critically acclaimed books like Animal Man, Justice League Dark, and Swamp Thing would survive if the four Batman titles, the three GL titles, Justice League, and the Superman titles all double shipped? A lot of readers would have to choose between the double shipped stuff or dropping the other titles. You would see the three titles I mention slip into cancellation range.

Where does it say this?

[Wolf_Leader]

Exactly.

I can't imagine dropping a title I I love like Daredevil to get an Avengers or X-title simply "Marvel says so". Those titles are pretty different in content.

It's some thing I've never done and I honestly have never met anyone that buys comics like that.

The problem is you keep spinning the point you are arguing against into this literal example of being commanded by Marvel. What we are talking about is the reality of having to choose which books to follow when double shipping is rampant, but this also applies to franchise bloat. If I like title A better than title B and C and title A double ships, do I drop title A and keep B and C, or drop B and C and keep A? If Marvel puts out title D that is pretty close in theme to A which looks like something I'd like, and says that a lot of what goes on in A will effect D and the other way around, I might again have to decide to drop B or C to make room. Those are the types of scenarios that are happening which are directly due to Marvel trying to get more out of their best selling franchises.

The rest of this might belong in the 'is Marvel's focus too narrow' thread, but it might make sense for Marvel, sales wise, in the short term, to focus on those, especially for people who prefer what is getting the focus and end up not missing what they give up, but it sucks for people who see a book canceled that people were at some point satisfied reading and I'd say weakens the Marvel brand overall, in the long term.

[carabas]

They don't? 'Cause all I've heard is about how Captain America is under the Avengers franchise, which I'll loosely agree with. I'll also agree that Batman and Superman are key characters in the Justice League comic.

It's probably more accurate to state that Justice League is a Batman family book. Batman > JLA.
DC simply doesn't treat Justice League as a franchise in the same way Marvel does the Avengers and X-Men.

The difference for me is this: in Captan America and Iron Man solo books, the Avengers play a large part. In Green Lantern and Wonder Woman, the JLA might as well not exist.
Marvel also markets those books as Avengers books. DC does not market it's general superhero books as JLA books.

[whiteshark]

As always your missing the point.

Nova, GotG, Captain Britain and the rest all fell to cancellation level because of $3.99 and double shipping. Oh they were never top sellers but they were doing okay. Then when readers were forced to make a choice they chose the big gun titles. Great for fans of those books, not so great for fans of the smaller books.

To put it another way look at DC where they don't double ship but imagine if they did. Do you really think critically acclaimed books like Animal Man, Justice League Dark, and Swamp Thing would survive if the four Batman titles, the three GL titles, Justice League, and the Superman titles all double shipped? A lot of readers would have to choose between the double shipped stuff or dropping the other titles. You would see the three titles I mention slip into cancellation range.

As always i am missing the point,you say?
Thats funny said by someone which said something that made no sense,as the jumps in logic that double shipping was responsible by the cancellation of low selling titles which would get cancelled anyways because they were getting low sales.
By the way marvel started do double shiping most of the titles way after the titles you mentioned got cancelled.
So whats next?
Marvel double shiping of their titles is responsible of the World hunger as well?

[Dog]

Unless I'm mistaken, there really wasn't any double-shipping (not like there is now) when Nova, Guardians, and Captain Britain were canceled. Definitely not for Captain Britain.

[Wolf_Leader]

Unless I'm mistaken, there really wasn't any double-shipping (not like there is now) when Nova, Guardians, and Captain Britain were canceled. Definitely not for Captain Britain.

I'd agree. Even though I argue that double shipping affects the sales of lower selling titles, I think most of those Marvel has given up on (not creatively, but with their shareholders in mind). I think double shipping has more to do with market shares while getting things reorganized for the NOW! relaunch. Hopefully they are confident in this new lineup and keep double shipping to a minimum.

[carabas]

Unless I'm mistaken, there really wasn't any double-shipping (not like there is now) when Nova, Guardians, and Captain Britain were canceled. Definitely not for Captain Britain.

I think just Amazing Spider-Man, which tripple-shipped.

[PwrdOff]

A simple thought experiment...

Let's say you rebooted the MU with 52 new titles starring 52 different characters. At the end of each week, you replaced the lowest selling book with a new book starring the main character of the highest-selling book. Good enough plan, right? But at the end of the year you're left with 52 books about the same character, and your sales will inevitably be worse than what you started with. Somewhere in the middle there, you reached a critical turning point where overexposure ended up dooming your line. How far is Marvel from that point right now, or have they passed it already?

[Joe Acro]

How far is Marvel from that point right now, or have they passed it already?

Decently far, I'd say. I mean, DC has Batman, Batman Incorporated, Batman & Robin, Batman: The Dark Knight, and Detective Comics, all starring the same character. Doesn't seem to have bothered their sales much. Marvel doesn't have anyone who has exposure to that degree. Even if you grant that Batman & Robin and Batman Incorporated can focus on other characters, you still have three titles, which Marvel only recently did with thrice-monthly Amazing Spider-Man.

So I'd say DC's record, at least, shows that multiple ongoings with the same character can still be financially viable. I'm not sure what the breaking point would be, but Marvel's not even to DC's point, so it's moot.

[Zero Hunter]

There is no way you can tell me the Wolverine at some point has not had as many books going at once as Batman has with mini series and ongoings and being on every team in the Marvel U also.

The BIG difference is that for every Batman book DC has an Aquaman or a Firestorm or a Animal Man or a Frankenstein. Marvel just flat out can not claim that type of diveristy to the line anymore. Everything is Avengers or X-Men related with a few Spider Man titles thrown in the mix.

[Joe Acro]

There is no way you can tell me the Wolverine at some point has not had as many books going at once as Batman has with mini series and ongoings and being on every team in the Marvel U also.

I haven't kept track well enough to say, but I think they've never gone over more than three actual Wolverine series at a time.

Now, taking team titles or guest-appearances into account might change things, but that doesn't really hit into the scenario that was suggested.


EDIT: Upon looking through some stuff, he apparently was the lead or co-star of four titles in January of last year, one of which was a mini.

[Rasputin9977]

There is no way you can tell me the Wolverine at some point has not had as many books going at once as Batman has with mini series and ongoings and being on every team in the Marvel U also.

The BIG difference is that for every Batman book DC has an Aquaman or a Firestorm or a Animal Man or a Frankenstein. Marvel just flat out can not claim that type of diveristy to the line anymore. Everything is Avengers or X-Men related with a few Spider Man titles thrown in the mix.

And Deadpool.