So tired of the 'Where do I start?' excuse to reboot everything.

[carabas]

Except there's nothing to prove that it has to do exclusively with not being a part of a shared universe. It's just an arbitrary aspect.

Hell, having a shared Universe didn't seem to damage the Avengers film. If anything, the shared universe concept is what made it so appealing in the first place.

Well, let's see how that movie-universe goes if they're aiming to keep a very tight continuity for the next 60 years.

While the reasons for the deplorable state of the American comicbook indusrtry are very unlikely to be singular, it stands to reason that the biggest differences between American comics and comics for anywhere else are part of the problem.

And no, shared universes are not a problem, it's massive, sprawling shared universes made up of dozens and dozens of different properties.

The Marvel Universe is as if 50% of every genre series ever made was part of the same continuity. Star Wars, Farscape, Doctor Who, Xena Warrior Princess, and the X-Files all one big continuity, and you it's next to impossible to follow just one series, because they cross over all the damn time.

[RDMacQ]

Not to mention that comics aren't distributed the same way they were in the 70s.

I'm afraid he won't believe you, in any case. nice guy I'm sure but he's an expert at many things he admits to knowing nothing about.

SW

Except your "explanations" just amounted to you saying you were an expert and not giving any significant reasons WHY it wouldn't work, and just belittled the other persons opinion.

It was someone else that provided actual evidence that Marvel DID try to get comics back in drug stores, but it was a failed experiment.

And let's face it- you're a bit of a biased source.

[J. Robb]

Marvel could do a 52-style complete reboot, but there would still way too many titles, a dozen X-Men and a dozen Avengers series.

Marvel's long history isn't a problem- the big stories are remembered, the small details become less important. It's the short term that's the problem- there's so many titles that recent history is where continuity gets messy. And that wouldn't change with a reboot.

[RDMacQ]

Well, let's see how that movie-universe goes if they're aiming to keep a very tight continuity for the next 60 years.

While the reasons for the deplorable state of the American comicbook indusrtry are very unlikely to be singular, it stands to reason that the biggest differences between American comics and comics for anywhere else are part of the problem.

And no, shared universes are not a problem, it's massive, sprawling shared universes made up of dozens and dozens of different properties.

The Marvel Universe is as if 50% of every genre series ever made was part of the same continuity. Star Wars, Farscape, Doctor Who, Xena Warrior Princess, and the X-Files all one big continuity, and you it's next to impossible to follow just one series, because they cross over all the damn time.

Again, I don't think the "deplorable state" of the American Comic Book Industry can be liked solely to the shared Universe concept. A shared Universe does not mean an incoherent narrative. Spider-Man can exist in the same Universe as the X-Men without any convolution, as the two aspects rarely interact. The Silver Surfer can exist in the same universe as Daredevil without things becoming too convoluted as they occupy different corners of the mythos.

The problems, I feel, are more practical in nature. The removal of comics from convenience stores in the 90's probably didn't help things, as it caused comics to lose a foothold in a very lucrative market for a short term gain.

I also think there's a lack of significant talent coming into the industry. There was an injection of new writers about ten years ago, but there hasn't been an injection of really new talent in a while.

I also believe that the focus on the comics- especially at Marvel- is too influenced on simply making new IP's and glomming off the success of the movies rather than actually focus on telling good stories. It's odd when the movies are trying to be more like the comics, and the comics- rather than celebrate their own strengths- are trying to attach themselves to the big budget motion pictures in the most blatantly superficial ways.

And there are probably about a hundred more things that are affecting the industry, far more than the concept of a shared universe ever could.

[tony ingram]

Again, I don't think the "deplorable state" of the American Comic Book Industry can be liked solely to the shared Universe concept. A shared Universe does not mean an incoherent narrative. Spider-Man can exist in the same Universe as the X-Men without any convolution, as the two aspects rarely interact. The Silver Surfer can exist in the same universe as Daredevil without things becoming too convoluted as they occupy different corners of the mythos.

The problems, I feel, are more practical in nature. The removal of comics from convenience stores in the 90's probably didn't help things, as it caused comics to lose a foothold in a very lucrative market for a short term gain.

Someone else who hasn't been reading the thread, I see. The convenience stores weren't a lucrative market, that was the point! As has already been pointed out more than once in the last day or so, publishers did not take comics out of the grocery stores because they wanted to-the stores didn't want them because they weren't making money from them.

I also think there's a lack of significant talent coming into the industry. There was an injection of new writers about ten years ago, but there hasn't been an injection of really new talent in a while.

There are plenty of talented people in comics. They just aren't working for DC or Marvel.

I also believe that the focus on the comics- especially at Marvel- is too influenced on simply making new IP's and glomming off the success of the movies rather than actually focus on telling good stories.

I'd agree with that.

[RDMacQ]

Marvel could do a 52-style complete reboot, but there would still way too many titles, a dozen X-Men and a dozen Avengers series.

Marvel's long history isn't a problem- the big stories are remembered, the small details become less important. It's the short term that's the problem- there's so many titles that recent history is where continuity gets messy. And that wouldn't change with a reboot.

But again, as long as the bigger details are remembered- and there's nothing done to contradict the little ones- it shouldn't be a problem.

Again, I don't think it's that much of a problem to keep straight. Honest mistakes are going to happen. A writer might forget that one character already met another one, but that's understandable and could be easily explained. But as long as creators don't willingly try to contradict something that already happened, it shouldn't get too confusing.

[RDMacQ]

Someone else who hasn't been reading the thread, I see. The convenience stores weren't a lucrative market, that was the point! As has already been pointed out more than once in the last day or so, publishers did not take comics out of the grocery stores because they wanted to-the stores didn't want them because they weren't making money from them.

Or- as I heard it- they believed there was more money in the direct market due to the boom in the comic book industry at that time. Unfortunately when the bubble burst, there wasn't anywhere else to go since comics pulled out of the convenience stores and other markets where they previously had a foothold.

There are plenty of talented people in comics. They just aren't working for DC or Marvel.

Which is kind of the problem. If Marvel wants to attract people to their comics, they need to get new blood into the system.

[PwrdOff]

Marvel could do a 52-style complete reboot, but there would still way too many titles, a dozen X-Men and a dozen Avengers series.

Marvel's long history isn't a problem- the big stories are remembered, the small details become less important. It's the short term that's the problem- there's so many titles that recent history is where continuity gets messy. And that wouldn't change with a reboot.

A full reboot has its own problems. To start, what do you do with all the legacy characters floating around?

[tony ingram]

Or- as I heard it- they believed there was more money in the direct market due to the boom in the comic book industry at that time. Unfortunately when the bubble burst, there wasn't anywhere else to go since comics pulled out of the convenience stores and other markets where they previously had a foothold.

They had a foothold there, but only because they'd always had one, and because they were keeping cover prices artificially low enough for kids to pick the books up without thinking about it-which in itself was a problem, as it meant neither they nor the stores were making enough money. Once the publishers could no longer offer sale or return, the stores could no longer justify stocking comics. The publishers saw that as an acceptable loss with the direct market on the rise, it's true,but if it hadn't been, comics still wouldn't have stayed in convenience stores. They'd simply have died a slow death over the next few years as more stores stopped stocking them.



Which is kind of the problem. If Marvel wants to attract people to their comics, they need to get new blood into the system.[/QUOTE]

[PwrdOff]

They had a foothold there, but only because they'd always had one, and because they were keeping cover prices artificially low enough for kids to pick the books up without thinking about it-which in itself was a problem, as it meant neither they nor the stores were making enough money. Once the publishers could no longer offer sale or return, the stores could no longer justify stocking comics. The publishers saw that as an acceptable loss with the direct market on the rise, it's true,but if it hadn't been, comics still wouldn't have stayed in convenience stores. They'd simply have died a slow death over the next few years as more stores stopped stocking them.

The one way I could see comics returning to newsstands is in an anthology format paid for mostly with advertising. But of course, comics would have to demonstrate that they could sell in sufficient quantities to command the necessary level of ad money. Plus magazines in general aren't really doing all that well these days, so trying to latch on to a dying format might not be the best idea.

Really, the only viable strategy to reach a wider audience is digital, but if that's going to work the price needs to be dropped substantially, stacked up against other digital media the limited value of a comic is even more glaring. Or they could add in some sort of physical copy redemption, maybe if you buy all the issues of a collection, you get a copy of the trade sent to you or something. Yeah this would cut into their trade sales, but the higher price of individual issues means that buying the trades normally would still be a better option for stories that aren't in progress. This would also incentivize people to buy issues they might otherwise skip just to complete the "set" they need for the next trade. It would probably even make people who have no interest in physical copies less uneasy about buying digital, since they can rationalize it as spending money on the physical copy that they just are choosing not to get sent out yet.

[carabas]

Again, I don't think the "deplorable state" of the American Comic Book Industry can be liked solely to the shared Universe concept.

That is exactly what I said in my post. We agree!

A shared Universe does not mean an incoherent narrative.

It does mean exactly that when you let it go on for decades, with dozens of books, hundreds of writers, many of them with completely incompatible ideas about these character. See also Peter David, John Byrne, and Lockjaw.

Spider-Man can exist in the same Universe as the X-Men without any convolution, as the two aspects rarely interact.

That's hardly a shared universe then, is it? If they rarely share a universe?

The Silver Surfer can exist in the same universe as Daredevil without things becoming too convoluted as they occupy different corners of the mythos.

That's how it could be, but that's not really how it actually is in any way at all. While DD and the SS don't generally go to the same parties, they do go to a lot of parties. Plus the Surfer basically exists only as a guest star in other books now.

The problems, I feel, are more practical in nature. The removal of comics from convenience stores in the 90's probably didn't help things, as it caused comics to lose a foothold in a very lucrative market for a short term gain.

They weren't removed, they were kicked out for being cheap crap with a non-existant profit margin. It's not as of Marvel and DC had much of a choice there.

I also think there's a lack of significant talent coming into the industry. There was an injection of new writers about ten years ago, but there hasn't been an injection of really new talent in a while.

I am not seeing this problem, ther seems to be plenty new talent, and it's not as if there were new geniuses popping out of the woodwork every month in the silver age.

I also believe that the focus on the comics- especially at Marvel- is too influenced on simply making new IP's and glomming off the success of the movies rather than actually focus on telling good stories. It's odd when the movies are trying to be more like the comics, and the comics- rather than celebrate their own strengths- are trying to attach themselves to the big budget motion pictures in the most blatantly superficial ways.

What?!?
The Big Two are not really interested in new IPs because the fanbase really isn't.
How exactly are the comics attaching themselves to the movies?

And there are probably about a hundred more things that are affecting the industry, far more than the concept of a shared universe ever could.

I think the big ones are ealisy pinpointed...
Shared, impenetrable universes, the format, the unending nature of the stories, the overwhelming dominance of one genre, the enduring 'comics are for kids' meme (thank you, comicbook code) and more recently, the insane prices.

[carabas]

Or- as I heard it- they believed there was more money in the direct market due to the boom in the comic book industry at that time. Unfortunately when the bubble burst, there wasn't anywhere else to go since comics pulled out of the convenience stores and other markets where they previously had a foothold.

You heard wrong.
Convenience stores and such were an incredibly lucrative market, for the publishers, not so much for the convenience stores.

If they had voluntarily pulled out, they ought to have had no problem voluntarilly getting back in. I'm sure convenience stores would have welcomed back that big comicbook money that Marvel and DC unfairly removed from their stores.

Which is kind of the problem. If Marvel wants to attract people to their comics, they need to get new blood into the system.

They have plenty of new blood.
But if they want the best work of the newer talents, who aren't used yet to being pisse on, the Big Two need to get a bit more serious about creator's rights. It's the 21st century.

[Juggernaut Punch]

How many threads are we gonna have calling Marvel Now a reboot?

Giving readers a new starting point is good for business and its necessary if you want to bring in new readers but if someone is really interested in starting they can do it without a clear starting point. When I started I just began reading stuff I liked like Astonishing X-Men and the events. Eventually stuff started making sense.

[stephen wacker]

There are plenty of talented people in comics. They just aren't working for DC or Marvel.

There's not one talented person at DC or Marvel?

That doesn't seem a tad extreme?

SW

[stephen wacker]

How many threads are we gonna have calling Marvel Now a reboot?

Giving readers a new starting point is good for business and its necessary if you want to bring in new readers but if someone is really interested in starting they can do it without a clear starting point. When I started I just began reading stuff I liked like Astonishing X-Men and the events. Eventually stuff started making sense.

It was also what many of the same gripers here were saying we were stupid for not doing...until it got announced.

You can always count on the inconsistency of anonymous mobs.

SW