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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    However, coming from an unnamed source with no insider industry knowledge, someone is probably going to be less likely to take it at face value, as I was. For me, it took someone pointing out that, yes, Marvel DID try that and it DIDN'T work, with actual photographic evidence, to convince me.
    Thing is, how do you know the person telling you this has "no insider industry knowledge"? A lot of people who do or have worked in or around the industry post on here, and some even use their real names. The internet can be a very mistrustful place at times, it seems.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Brannon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dog View Post
    So they should just give up? Resign themselves to the inevitability that comic books will die off when we do?
    He's not saying they should give up. His point is that the idea that the constant barrage of #1's will bring in new readers is a lie. The industry thrived on casual readers during the decades when comics had titles with large issue numbers like Action, Detective and so on. Marvel and DC do not create comics for the casual fan like they used to, they simple recycle themes and titles to appeal to the current fanbase. The companies now only go for the mainstream, all-age, audience in media such as animation and video games.
    "I was handed a chocolate bar and an M-1 rifle and told to go kill Hitler."--Jack "King" Kirby

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOff View Post
    Yeah but after a couple iterations of that you're gonna have some pretty messy continuity again, and then maybe you'd have to reboot the series or whatever.

    The only thing Marvel needs to remember is that there's no easy "okay from now on we won't do any more of X" fix that will clear up continuity and render the problem a non-issue for the indefinite future. Just go with the flow and use some judgement here and there, hard and fast rules about what gets kept or dropped are only going to make a bigger mess of things.
    Correct. There is no magic button to make everything better.

    Reboots aren't the answer. The reboots that worked- the really, REALLY worked- were the ones that offered something genuinely new and were in some ways necessary.

    Batman Begins offered moviegoers something they genuinely hadn't seen in film before- the early days of Batman's origins. The most recent film series by Tim Burton and Joel Schumacher jumped right into the action with Bruce already as Batman. There was some explanation as to his motivation as to WHY, but nothing touched upon the HOW he got to that point. His parents were murdered, then he was Batman. In addition to that, the previous series had become a total joke to the point that it was practically unsalvageable. Many of the elements of the mythos had been introduced to the films were bungled so badly that it was probably better to write it off and start anew rather than keep on going with the same narrative.

    With Star Trek, again we were looking at an untold story. How the crew of the Enterprise got together, how Kirk and Spock and Bones met. Plus, it helped that it was promoted as an alternate universe, meaning the story was now changed. And, again, the previous universe had become so maligned that it seemed a good story was impossible.

    Compare this to the recent Spider-Man film, which largely has seemed to disappear from the collective consciousness. It wasn't something that was really necessary, and it told a story that had already been told before. Yes, it was successful. But not nearly the same level as the other two reboots. Or compare DC's new 52. While it did get a lot of attention, it also drew a lot of criticism for not having a clear picture of what did or did not happen. Again, it wasn't all that necessary for a lot of the books that just kept on chugging along like nothing really happened.

  4. #64
    Marquis de carabas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOff View Post
    Yeah but after a couple iterations of that you're gonna have some pretty messy continuity again, and then maybe you'd have to reboot the series or whatever.
    They could do what the rest of the world does: not have infinitely ongoing books, not have massive shared universes, simply let stories end and let characters retire. And have comics sales massively huger than Marve land DC put together.
    'The marquis. Well, you know, to be honest, he seems a little bit dodgy to me.'
    'Mm,' she agreed. 'He's a little bit dodgy in the same way that rats are a little bit covered in fur."

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    Thing is, how do you know the person telling you this has "no insider industry knowledge"? A lot of people who do or have worked in or around the industry post on here, and some even use their real names. The internet can be a very mistrustful place at times, it seems.
    Again, because I have no evidence that they do. It's not so much distrustful as it is taking things with a grain of salt.

    I mean, I've seen plenty of people speak with assuredness of what went on in the industry. I saw one person argue that the reason Roger Stern was fired off of the Avengers was because he criticized Spider-Man's marriage. Only for Roger Stern himself come on to correct him that that wasn't the case at all. I've seen people saw that one thing happened in the industry with absolute certainty, only to be proven wrong later. Without evidence to back up their point, their argument could just be hyperbole and conjecture.

    Now, I'll grant you, a lot of what they say does make sense. That being said, there could be other factors that someone with a lot of insider knowledge might now that could contradict that. I'm not saying that someone who makes these arguments HAS to make their name and occupation known for me to take their point seriously. What I'm saying is that facts and figures to go ALONG with this helps a lot. As with anything.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    They could do what the rest of the world does: not have infinitely ongoing books, not have massive shared universes, simply let stories end and let characters retire. And have comics sales massively huger than Marve land DC put together.
    Except that's part of the fun of comics and part of their selling feature. You might argue that other mediums DON'T have that, but one might argue that part of the reason comics are appealing is BECAUSE they have these things.

  7. #67
    Sad Hawkguy in the snow CyberHubbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carabas View Post
    They could do what the rest of the world does: not have infinitely ongoing books, not have massive shared universes, simply let stories end and let characters retire. And have comics sales massively huger than Marve land DC put together.
    Yeah. I'm not sure how Star Wars survives. Or Transformers.
    I know Kevin Nichols through a guy that knows a gal. Small world!

    If nihilism didn't take some delight in destruction one might suspect nihilists were an unnaturally morbid sort.
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  8. #68
    Sad Hawkguy in the snow CyberHubbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOff View Post
    Yeah but after a couple iterations of that you're gonna have some pretty messy continuity again, and then maybe you'd have to reboot the series or whatever.

    The only thing Marvel needs to remember is that there's no easy "okay from now on we won't do any more of X" fix that will clear up continuity and render the problem a non-issue for the indefinite future. Just go with the flow and use some judgement here and there, hard and fast rules about what gets kept or dropped are only going to make a bigger mess of things.
    One book is probably easier to find than collecting 6 or 12 monthly issues.

    Now, OGNs do have problems. It seems easier this day to lose a reader's attention just because something else comes in during the gap between volumes and steals their time and money.
    I know Kevin Nichols through a guy that knows a gal. Small world!

    If nihilism didn't take some delight in destruction one might suspect nihilists were an unnaturally morbid sort.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberHubbs View Post
    They're shared universes that seem to make money since they're still being produced on a regular basis, be it in comic form or novels. And of course the video games.
    It is honestly baffling to me the sheer mileage they've managed to get out of the Star Wars brand. I mean, the movies weren't THAT good...

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDMacQ View Post
    Except that's part of the fun of comics and part of their selling feature. You might argue that other mediums DON'T have that, but one might argue that part of the reason comics are appealing is BECAUSE they have these things.
    He wasn't talking about other mediums. He was talking about comics-just not American comics. Sales of many non-American comics are far larger than Marvel and DC could manage, without having shared universes or characters that never age or die.

  11. #71
    Sad Hawkguy in the snow CyberHubbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOff View Post
    Dude who needs those when you have knives sticking out of your hands that keep you from bending your wrists?
    Lightsabers double as flashlights. It's the perfect home security weapon.
    I know Kevin Nichols through a guy that knows a gal. Small world!

    If nihilism didn't take some delight in destruction one might suspect nihilists were an unnaturally morbid sort.
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  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by CyberHubbs View Post
    Lightsabers double as flashlights. It's the perfect home security weapon.
    Pretty sure there's a continuity violation there somewhere.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOff View Post
    Pretty sure there's a continuity violation there somewhere.
    Eh. They can fix it in the reboot.
    I know Kevin Nichols through a guy that knows a gal. Small world!

    If nihilism didn't take some delight in destruction one might suspect nihilists were an unnaturally morbid sort.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    He wasn't talking about other mediums. He was talking about comics-just not American comics. Sales of many non-American comics are far larger than Marvel and DC could manage, without having shared universes or characters that never age or die.
    Except there's nothing to prove that it has to do exclusively with not being a part of a shared universe. It's just an arbitrary aspect.

    Hell, having a shared Universe didn't seem to damage the Avengers film. If anything, the shared universe concept is what made it so appealing in the first place.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    But several people on here have explained the situation, several times. Convenience stores don't want comics because they take up shelf space that could be better utilized for items which will give them more profit, and because comic companies don't offer sale-or-return (where unsold copies can be cover stripped and the covers returned to the publisher, so that the store doesn't have to pay for them) anymore. Convenience stores will not order in comics on the off-chance that they'll sell if they can't recoup any losses, and the publishers can no longer afford sale or return as production costs have gone through the roof. It's that simple. There are other factors, but I believe these are the main ones. The market simply doesn't work anymore the way it did when we were kids.
    Not to mention that comics aren't distributed the same way they were in the 70s.

    I'm afraid he won't believe you, in any case. nice guy I'm sure but he's an expert at many things he admits to knowing nothing about.

    SW

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