AVX COMMENTARY TRACK: Aaron on Issue #9, Plus Bonus Features

[XPac]

After everything Black Panther said I find it rather forced that he allowed the Avengers into Wakanda, especially after they invaded Utopia for a second time. I don't agree with the excessive forced used but I guess this mirrors the United States recent invasions. Probably the Iraq one more because it wasn't sanctioned.

BP's earlier statements were made before the P5 did anything which technically made them look villainous. The fact that they were hunting down the Avengers, plus Hope herself confirming that something was wrong with them, was enough to get people who were on the fence like Beast and T'Challa back on the Avengers side. It's the same reason Storm and the X-Men ending up switching sides too... eventually there comes a point when heroes can't simply sit on the sidelines. They need to fight for the right side, regardless of the risks. It's just what heroes do.

Wakanda ended up paying a huge price... but if the P5 end up proving a threat to the world, T'Challa would almost certainly do it again. The invasion itself proved the P5 needed to be stopped. Xavier and many of the X-Men saw that as well.

[AcesX1X]

Wakanda ended up paying a huge price... but if the P5 end up proving a threat to the world, T'Challa would almost certainly do it again. The invasion itself proved the P5 needed to be stopped. Xavier and many of the X-Men saw that as well.

nice to know he considers the wakandas so expendable. especially when nothing they were doing in wakanda behind innocents couldn't have been done in the savage land or mountain wundagore or something, where they would be putting less people in danger.

[XPac]

First off, my previous post was in response to your contention that this was _normal_ behavior for Namor and that he was _normally a villain_. I didn't say this particular action was heroic, though if Marvel ever devoted some time to the Atlanteans, one might make an argument that they didn't find an attack on the surface world unheroic, especially in the modern era. Warlord seems to be a highly respected office amongst them. That said ...

Again. Namor allied with the mutants and agreed to treat them as his own people. The Avengers had invaded Utopia two times, and then Rulk invaded a third time with the intent to kill the P5. AvX #7 made it clear that Namor, and Emma, and Magik all saw the struggle with the Avengers as a war.

As far as this action being stupid ... not so much. He was pretty close to taking out all the Avengers.

As far as BP and Wakanda being an ally ... where did you get that idea? Where was Wakanda when Atlantis was facing SHIELD? Why would an ally hide the enemies of Atlantis and Utopia and let them stage attacks on their alleged ally from their country? Did BP respect Namor's alliance with Lemuria during Sturm and Drang? Has he honored Namor's requests for extradition of Atlantean criminals? When has BP or T'challa EVER helped Atlantis during it's various crisis and decimations?

Well, if you think the Atlanteans are stupid for that reason, how much more stupider must the Wakandans be, because T'challa and Shuri dragged them into a war that essentially had nothing to do with them by helping the Avengers, and got their city destroyed and their people killed.

And the Wakandans are doubly stupid then, as this is the second time T'challa's dragged them into a war with the Atlanteans over something that had nothing to do with them.

And if it weren't for Namor's CONTROL, it would be the third time, because Shuri foolishly attacked the ruler of Atlantis on his own island. And none of those three times were T'challa or Shuri under the influence of a cosmic power.




Agreed. Especially when the Avengers basically launched the attack at the behest of US.




The Avengers should never have been hiding in Wakanda.

And yes, banish the X-Men. How quickly Wakanda forgets, it was the X-Men and Namor, NOT the Avengers, who came to their aid during DoomWar.

I will certainly concede that the Atlaneans trying to murder innocent people along with Namor probably didn't have too much trouble with Namor trying to murder innocent people. From their perspective, I'm sure it was fine.

As for stopping the P5 having nothing to do with the Wakandans ... it potentially had something to do with everyone on the planet. Because the P5 are a potential threat to the entire planet. And IF (at this point I'm just saying IF though I truthfully feel pretty comfortable with my prediction) what's left of the P5 end up being that threat the Avengers suspect they will be then helping the Avengers stop them will have ended up saving everyone in the long run... including the Atlanteans who were trying to hard to kill them earlier.

If the world ends up burning as the solicits state, then helping the Avengers won't be stupid... it'll be flat out necessary. Helping the P5 will have been the stupid act... something most of the X-Men (the good ones at least) are smart enough to realize, even if the Atlanteans aren't. There's a bigger picture at work here, which up until now only Hope and the Avengers were seeing.

As far as the X-Men coming to the aid of Wakanda in Doom War... they came to help Storm, not Wakanda. That was pretty obvious considering they left as soon as Storm was free, even though Wakanda and frankly the rest of the planet with still in danger from Doom. And it's important to note that the Avengers after Doom War were show in Wakanda helping to rebuilt. It's super heroes doing contruction work... that to me shows they do in fact care for Wakanda, not just their buddy that happens to be there.

[XPac]

nice to know he considers the wakandas so expendable. especially when nothing they were doing in wakanda behind innocents couldn't have been done in the savage land or mountain wundagore or something, where they would be putting less people in danger.

Truthfully in the wake of a potential global threat, everyone is expendable.

Sollicits say the world ends up burning... Wakanda is on the world, just like everyone else. Sometimes you take risks and make sacrifices for the greater good. No one ever said doing the right thing doesn't sometimes suck.

[AcesX1X]

i don't see how banking on a population of innocent people to hide you from your enemies is the "right thing" but maybe that's just me. there were other places they could go to conspire against the x-men that would have been just as secure. wakanda was their choice, and namor called the avengers bluff. too bad for the wakandas, but i'm sure t'challa won't bear any responsibility for it in the end.

[XPac]

i don't see how banking on a population of innocent people to hide you from your enemies is the "right thing" but maybe that's just me. there were other places they could go to conspire against the x-men that would have been just as secure. wakanda was their choice, and namor called the avengers bluff. too bad for the wakandas, but i'm sure t'challa won't bear any responsibility for it in the end.

And I don't see how murdering innocent people is the right thing. I guess we're both just different.

As I helping, helping the Avengers is the right thing if it assists in helping them find a way to stop a potential global threat. Namor at the Atlanteans may have been too stupid to realize the problem, but fortunately for them and the rest of the world the Avengers (and eventually the rest of the X-Men) did.

[AcesX1X]

and unfortunately for the wakandas, the avengers put them directly between themselves and five corrupted, angry demigods.

[XPac]

and unfortunately for the wakandas, the avengers put them directly between themselves and five corrupted, angry demigods.

It is terribly unfortunate yes.

But there were upsides. In the least it showed a good chunk of the X-Men (and hopefully the rest of the world), what sort of threat the P5 were and helped get them to see they were fighting on the wrong side. So in the long run, it's possible things essentially happened the way they needed to happen.

Namors stupidity ended up costing his side almost as much as the Wakandans, but in the long run it might have actually been a key turning point in this conflict.

[ExodusCloak]

As far as the X-Men coming to the aid of Wakanda in Doom War... they came to help Storm, not Wakanda. That was pretty obvious considering they left as soon as Storm was free, even though Wakanda and frankly the rest of the planet with still in danger from Doom. And it's important to note that the Avengers after Doom War were show in Wakanda helping to rebuilt. It's super heroes doing contruction work... that to me shows they do in fact care for Wakanda, not just their buddy that happens to be there.

Are you sure? I don't have my issue in front of me but I'm sure Emma Frost, Cyclops + more X-Men and Namor appear at the end to help rebuild. And they're talking to T'Challa at the end.

[Rheged]

Are you sure? I don't have my issue in front of me but I'm sure Emma Frost, Cyclops + more X-Men and Namor appear at the end to help rebuild. And they're talking to T'Challa at the end.

They do. I distinctly remember Namor being there.

[Rheged]

BP's earlier statements were made before the P5 did anything which technically made them look villainous. The fact that they were hunting down the Avengers, plus Hope herself confirming that something was wrong with them, was enough to get people who were on the fence like Beast and T'Challa back on the Avengers side. It's the same reason Storm and the X-Men ending up switching sides too... eventually there comes a point when heroes can't simply sit on the sidelines. They need to fight for the right side, regardless of the risks. It's just what heroes do.

Except, of course, the P5 didn't start doing that until the Avengers invaded Utopia ... again. Arguably, it's the Avengers that made the P5 situation and then made it worse.

nice to know he considers the wakandas so expendable. especially when nothing they were doing in wakanda behind innocents couldn't have been done in the savage land or mountain wundagore or something, where they would be putting less people in danger.

This. The Avengers, as heroes, shouldn't have been hiding in Wakanda.

Truthfully in the wake of a potential global threat, everyone is expendable.

Sollicits say the world ends up burning... Wakanda is on the world, just like everyone else. Sometimes you take risks and make sacrifices for the greater good. No one ever said doing the right thing doesn't sometimes suck.

And I don't see how murdering innocent people is the right thing. I guess we're both just different.
As I helping, helping the Avengers is the right thing if it assists in helping them find a way to stop a potential global threat. Namor at the Atlanteans may have been too stupid to realize the problem, but fortunately for them and the rest of the world the Avengers (and eventually the rest of the X-Men) did.

So, the Avengers using the Wakandans as expendable meat shields, and getting them killed "helping" them in this manner is right and heroic?

[XPac]

Except, of course, the P5 didn't start doing that until the Avengers invaded Utopia ... again. Arguably, it's the Avengers that made the P5 situation and then made it worse.




This. The Avengers, as heroes, shouldn't have been hiding in Wakanda.






So, the Avengers using the Wakandans as expendable meat shields, and getting them killed "helping" them in this manner is right and heroic?

The Avengers made the situation better. Hope couldn't control the Phoenix in the moon... the Avengers resolved that as best they could under the circustances. The story tells us that Hope needed the Kun Lun training to control the Phoenix... she didn't have it then. She's getting it now. Things happened the way they needed to happen. The P5 is another problem, and they're dealing with that too. It's what heroes do.

And the fact that the Avengers stood their ground to protect Wakanda when they could have simply escaped shows that they didn't consider Wakanda meat shields. That's why the X-Men are the ones considered enemies of Wakanda, but not the Avengers... Wakanda helped the Avengers and in turn the Avengers helped Wakanda. It's what heroes do. They protect innocent people, rather than murdering them like Namor.

[Hariel0079]

The Avengers made the situation better. Hope couldn't control the Phoenix in the moon... the Avengers resolved that as best they could under the circustances. The story tells us that Hope needed the Kun Lun training to control the Phoenix... she didn't have it then. She's getting it now. Things happened the way they needed to happen. The P5 is another problem, and they're dealing with that too. It's what heroes do.

And the fact that the Avengers stood their ground to protect Wakanda when they could have simply escaped shows that they didn't consider Wakanda meat shields. That's why the X-Men are the ones considered enemies of Wakanda, but not the Avengers... Wakanda helped the Avengers and in turn the Avengers helped Wakanda. It's what heroes do. They protect innocent people, rather than murdering them like Namor.

Given that fact just to add, Capt. doesn't feel all that proud about what happen in wakanda and does feel he's responsible. (this was given in Commentary Interview)

I agree though with many are saying the fact the Avengers sought asylum in wakanda foolishly thinking that nothing would happen was wrong of them.

[Jota]

Yeah, but none of the people he supposedly threw under the bus (Hope for example) consider him a traitor... because again they understand why he did what he did. There's a reason Hope was chosen as his champion over Scott.

As far as him being called a traitor... considering a good chunk of the "real" X-Men have realizsed they are fighting on the wrong side and are switching sides, I'd argue the "traitor" label was misplaced. All Logan did was realize which was the right side a little quicker than the rest.

The X-Men are realizing that the P5 are going crazy and they are leaving them. That doesn't mean that they are good with Wolverine. He's still the one of the biggest instigators of this mess. The P5 are crazy? They never asked for this power. It's his fault they got it!
And he's still a traitor. Again, how many times did Wolverine get mindcontroled, posessed or nuts and the X-Men made every effort to help him recover? But when he saw them going in a path he thinks it's wrong he made absolutely no effort to change their minds. He attacked them imediately! That's why he's a traitor and a piece of crap. If those people cared as little for him as he does for them, he'd be dead right now. He doesn't deserve them as friends or teamates.

As far as him being done as an X-Men... does anyone wanna bet money on that not being the case? Post AvX he will likely be in MORE X-books than any other X-Men, just like he always is. Logan is Mr. X-Men. Always has been and always will be. You can of course feel free to continue believing he's done being an X-Men... but you would likely be wrong.

So what you're saying is that the most overexposed character in Marvel will continue to have apearances that don't make any sense? Well, that comes as absolutely no surprise.
Yes, Wolverine will still be in the x-books. It just wont make any sense. After AvX, no one on the team would cross the street to spit on him, if they were trying to make any sense. Of course, this is Marvel and the x-books are going to be in the hands of the two writers responsible for AvX. And it's become pretty clear that Brian Bendis and Jason Aaron wouldn't know the meaning of logic and sense if they were it in the head with a diccionary.

[Jota]

I'm just tired of many bias haters ignoring what's being written in this event. Granted I don't like it either but I can't change what's written on paper. For starters all those pointing out the talk between cap and Logan in issue 1 of this event as the sole reason that cap and cyke couldn't talk like civilized people... what about the brief telepathic convo that Emma shared with Scott mentioning captain america on utopia and his business (in issue 1)... one can easily state Emma playing a similar role herself to what Logan haters were accusing of him

Except that would be complete bs! Emma said the absolute truth. She read Captain America's mind and knew he wasn't going away without Hope.
She didn't sold the other side as crazy zealots who would never see reason and should be attacked imediately. That was Logan!