Minorities and Other Issues in Comics Thread/Community IV

[Froggy]

i'm down to multiple warheads, Savage Dragon (YEAH IM STILL READING IT, WANNA FIGHT ABOUT IT) and about one more title

it sucks being a full time student with no job

[Mr MajestiK]

Well it is a hard choice to decide whether one should blacklist the whole company or just certain writers. I just do certain writers personally.

I don't see anything hard about that choice.

Marvel have zero respect for the African/African-American/Carribean demographic as clearly illustrated by the general trend of some of the books they put out featuring such characters.

Hickman is doing interesting things with T'Challa in New Avengers and may do cool things with Falcon and the current Captain Universe over in the Avengers book but that's just two books out of how many hundred that Marvel put out?

Outside of Hickman, one might as well forget about any kind of meaningful portrayal of black male superheroes within the 616 MU.

[Mr MajestiK]

It's a very intense and heavy situation and it's one I don't think people understand just how delicate a representation of this sort is for certain people. For one, Storm and T'Challa are the two biggest black characters at Marvel. While some readers may not see the characters as that much of a big deal, to certain other readers, particularly black readers, they represent that people of their same color can stand up next to the other big leagues on their own accord. They're both very powerful and regal and as much as T'Challa seems to piss some readers off, he is an unfiltered stand in of a black man standing up against injustice and underestimation. Wakanda was created as a country that didn't go through the slave trade or imperialism or Westernization. Black Panther and Wakanda are essential characters representing black power and black pride amongst the HUGE playing field of the majority of white stories and fantasy. So then we also have Storm, who is the biggest Black character in all of comic books and lots of black readers and even non comic readers look up to her as this huge representation of black power also. But some fans feel that while she is obviously a powerful black character, there isn't too much of what would classify as "black culture" in her. People can agree or disagree with this. So over the years of their creation, there were some stories that pondered and toyed with the idea of these two characters together. So finally they get married under the pen of a writer who's very much unfiltered and dare I say not very subtle with his ideas of what T'Challa and Wakanda should represent amongst the sea of other mainstream white books. Me, myself, am a HUGE fan of the pairing but I can agree that the means of HOW they got together along a few other stuff were very poorly done and could have been so much more and handled so much better. The idea of the pairing is great, execution was terrible at times, especially on both sides of the BP and X-Men writing teams.

Now remember when I said how big the representation of BP and Storm are, especially to some black people/readership? Now that they're together, they now represent an actual black power couple in comic books, something that isn't really showcased AT ALL in comic dom. Because of who these two black characters are, they now represent an ideal black pairing and love relationship and marriage. When you now have this marriage ending up in an extremely idiotic fashion (in AvX, they get soooo OOC that that they let other characters dictate when they should talk to each other; they fight and beat each other up without talking it out or even using their established characterizations where they would both just walk away and find other means of squashing this; they both come off very petty and immature). So when the going got tough, this couple faltered in such a stupid way and in a sub-textual level, it makes a black readership ponder on just what is Marvel trying to say about a black couple in this position? When someone, or a product, becomes a representation of a specific group, they're held up in high value and people want these representation to be dealt with respect. It becomes a slap in the face when it's showcased as nothing but trashy handling.

So then we have the fallout of this divorce and the first thing they do, instead dealing with this divorce in a mature manner or even discussing their issues like an actual couple would, the first thing Storm does is go into the arms of Logan. Not even a month or so seem to have passed and it's an even more delicate manner when Storm has been portrayed with various lovers outside of her race, but when she's paired with T'Challa, people trash the relationship because they are black and don't think about the similarities to two actually have or the idea of what they represent together. Once again, while I can understand some concerns of their pairing (the rushed marriage; some of the awkward writing), some people really went out of their way of feeling disgust for the coupling and shot it down. Symbolically, it makes some members of the black readership wonder just how are they viewed in the large scheme of things with decisions of this sorts are dealt with in such a manner as it's been. It's especially telling when the writers that showed the two in a loving manner were black themselves, but the other writers outside of them seem to struggle to even show the two of them together in a loving manner or show them together at all (props to Liss and Yost for being the exceptions).

This was an totally awesome post Greg.

Pity it's wasted on CBR. :smh:

[Moose100]

I don't see anything hard about that choice.

Marvel have zero respect for the African/African-American/Carribean demographic as clearly illustrated by the general trend of some of the books they put out featuring such characters.

Hickman is doing interesting things with T'Challa in New Avengers and may do cool things with Falcon and the current Captain Universe over in the Avengers book but that's just two books out of how many hundred that Marvel put out?

Outside of Hickman, one might as well forget about any kind of meaningful portrayal of black male superheroes within the 616 MU.

Pointedly, that will probably be the excuse too. "Hey theres Tchalla over there in NA why are you all complaining?"

[Onyenkwere]

Pointedly, that will probably be the excuse too. "Hey theres Tchalla over there in NA why are you all complaining?"

Somebody else gets it.

Marginilization is now.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

It has gotten better, but we are still far from a healthy market.

Well the TPB market has really became the big thing. Lets not forget that a reason the single issue market has dropped is the fact that graphic novels and more has picked up. Its part of the reason Marvel is releasing so many issues a year. To take advantage of a hot TPB market. They can sell more like that.

[marvell2100]

You know, BP fans are very happy with what Hickman is doing with NA. If only they had kept him in the Hands of Hickman. T'challa had moved on to other concerns. But all it took was one OOC moment in an X-title on top of the Consequences issue and that was the straw that broke the camel's back. The marriage wasn't being fairly portrayed, we argued and moved on. The marriage ended in a crappy manner, we argued and we moved on. A certain segment of Storm fans go what they wanted. BP, fans disappointed with the shoddy treatment of both characters, finally moved on. We had BP in the hands of a very capable writer. Marvel should have left it there.

But in order to create drama, ala' The Young and The Senseless, we have what happened in a particular X-title. It was totally out of character for both Storm and T'Challa. I had long given up on alot of X-titles for their treatment of black males and females. And before anyone comes in here with a list black/AA characters that I could count on two hands, I don't want wallpaper characters or Step 'n Fetch its. I want minority and in particular Black/AA given the same headline status as given to other characters. Especially when the characters have shown that they have earned that status.

This really gives Marvel a black eye. Now, I'm not going to say the problem is systematic because Bendis is doing a helluva job on USM and I'm really enjoying Hickman's Avengers and New Avengers. These are some really good titles that Marvel is putting out. But it's more than just them featuring minorities prominently but they have great characterization as well. another title I look forward to reading is Fearless Defenders and I won't deny that it's mainly t o see Misty Knight. The same can be said of Uncanny X-Force because it brings back one of my favorite characters, Bishop. Now I don't have a clue as to how Misty or Bishop will be portrayed in these comics and I hope that they are well written and given as much spotlight as any other characters in their respective books.

But I can say this. I used to think that it would be hard to walk away from the X-titles. I was wrong. My loyalty is no longer tied to a particular company. My money goes to the books that feature characters that I like written in a challenging, competent and compelling manner.

[akumasan]

So I have heard some silliness such as the closing of a certain thread?

[skyvolt2000]

Well the TPB market has really became the big thing. Lets not forget that a reason the single issue market has dropped is the fact that graphic novels and more has picked up. Its part of the reason Marvel is releasing so many issues a year. To take advantage of a hot TPB market. They can sell more like that.

I agree and I still say it would help if both companies bypass the single issue and just do 1 or 2 trades a year for certain characters.

I Vampire give it 2-3 trades a year for $10. Your creative is still free to do other stuff or could do 3 stories worth of trades and be done.

Static same thing since it's painfully clear any single issue of a comic book he appears in will get trashed and boycotted no matter if Johns, Lee, the anti-Christ, Satan or Jesus writes it. So to make everybody happy do 2 trades with him and be done. Yes it will be a sad commentary that minorities have to be delegated to trades because of a few fans but you do what you need to do.

But I can say this. I used to think that it would be hard to walk away from the X-titles. I was wrong. My loyalty is no longer tied to a particular company. My money goes to the books that feature characters that I like written in a challenging, competent and compelling manner.

It's not hard to walk away from something.

9 months of not buying anything form the nuDC.
14 months of not buying anything new from Marvel.
3 years of not watching the WWE or buying WWE products after Shelton Benjamin got dumped for Jennifer Hudson's no talent husband.
A decade of not watching the NBA and it took Dallas Mavericks going to the NBA finals to get me back interested.
A decade of not watching network tv. If it wasn't for my public library and borrowing dvds-I couldn't tell you a thing about Community, Bodies of Evidence & Cougar Town.

If I can do all this anybody can.

And one more thing about this mistreatment of minority-mainly the black ones-for all the folks who hate them-does that hate include movies & tv shows?

I mean if Avengers 2 has BP are they really not going to watch it because they hate him? If not why is it okay for him to be in a film but not in your comic book?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I agree and I still say it would help if both companies bypass the single issue and just do 1 or 2 trades a year for certain characters.

I Vampire give it 2-3 trades a year for $10. Your creative is still free to do other stuff or could do 3 stories worth of trades and be done.

Static same thing since it's painfully clear any single issue of a comic book he appears in will get trashed and boycotted no matter if Johns, Lee, the anti-Christ, Satan or Jesus writes it. So to make everybody happy do 2 trades with him and be done. Yes it will be a sad commentary that minorities have to be delegated to trades because of a few fans but you do what you need to do.

Well this won't work as I remember a poster (who loved TPB's to a degree claiming Vertigo could just do that and not worry about single issue sales) and I remember a writer (maybe Brian Wood) coming in and telling him that companies need single issue sales to get the TPB out. That the costs alone for just doing TPB's would be bigger than normal and be priced way more than they usually are. But with single issue sales the company won't be on the hook as much. Its why I believe he said to support his series in single issues to get the TPB's done.

It's not hard to walk away from something.

9 months of not buying anything form the nuDC.
14 months of not buying anything new from Marvel.
3 years of not watching the WWE or buying WWE products after Shelton Benjamin got dumped for Jennifer Hudson's no talent husband.
A decade of not watching the NBA and it took Dallas Mavericks going to the NBA finals to get me back interested.
A decade of not watching network tv. If it wasn't for my public library and borrowing dvds-I couldn't tell you a thing about Community, Bodies of Evidence & Cougar Town.

If I can do all this anybody can.

And one more thing about this mistreatment of minority-mainly the black ones-for all the folks who hate them-does that hate include movies & tv shows?

What hurt Shelton Benjamin was his lack of really good mic skills. In the WWE they value character and mic skills more than actual in ring work. There is talk he will resign with the company and work as a midcarder who will put people over.

[Genki Sudo]

You know, BP fans are very happy with what Hickman is doing with NA. If only they had kept him in the Hands of Hickman. T'challa had moved on to other concerns. But all it took was one OOC moment in an X-title on top of the Consequences issue and that was the straw that broke the camel's back. The marriage wasn't being fairly portrayed, we argued and moved on. The marriage ended in a crappy manner, we argued and we moved on. A certain segment of Storm fans go what they wanted. BP, fans disappointed with the shoddy treatment of both characters, finally moved on. We had BP in the hands of a very capable writer. Marvel should have left it there.

But in order to create drama, ala' The Young and The Senseless, we have what happened in a particular X-title. It was totally out of character for both Storm and T'Challa. I had long given up on alot of X-titles for their treatment of black males and females. And before anyone comes in here with a list black/AA characters that I could count on two hands, I don't want wallpaper characters or Step 'n Fetch its. I want minority and in particular Black/AA given the same headline status as given to other characters. Especially when the characters have shown that they have earned that status.

This really gives Marvel a black eye. Now, I'm not going to say the problem is systematic because Bendis is doing a helluva job on USM and I'm really enjoying Hickman's Avengers and New Avengers. These are some really good titles that Marvel is putting out. But it's more than just them featuring minorities prominently but they have great characterization as well. another title I look forward to reading is Fearless Defenders and I won't deny that it's mainly t o see Misty Knight. The same can be said of Uncanny X-Force because it brings back one of my favorite characters, Bishop. Now I don't have a clue as to how Misty or Bishop will be portrayed in these comics and I hope that they are well written and given as much spotlight as any other characters in their respective books.

But I can say this. I used to think that it would be hard to walk away from the X-titles. I was wrong. My loyalty is no longer tied to a particular company. My money goes to the books that feature characters that I like written in a challenging, competent and compelling manner.

And once again marvell is dropping megaton bombs and kicking straight science

[an angry space man]

Fellow BP fans, you're really taking this too seriously. When Hudlin left you should have known that the marriage would soon follow. I'm not a fan of Ororo and Logan as a couple but it's not the end of the world.

[an angry space man]

I don't get the get the sudden X-title hate on here. The X-titles were crap and devoid of black characters for years but when now when they have Idie, Storm, Chris and Bishop FINALLY back it's suddenly the last straw because Storm and T'Challa are no longer a couple?

Marvel comics are written by a small group of white men. Do you really think they understood what a black "power couple" meant to you? They don't get it. And I don't get why you expected them to get it.

[Moose100]

Fellow BP fans, you're really taking this too seriously. When Hudlin left you should have known that the marriage would soon follow. I'm not a fan of Ororo and Logan as a couple but it's not the end of the world.

Of course it's not the end of the world. But what certain people around here don't seem to get is that just because you ignore the racial implications of it all doesn't make it go away. No one is speaking on these things just because, it's consistent with what minorities see all the time.

[Moose100]

I don't get the get the sudden X-title hate on here. The X-titles were crap and devoid of black characters for years but when now when they have Idie, Storm, Chris and Bishop FINALLY back it's suddenly the last straw because Storm and T'Challa are no longer a couple?

Marvel comics are written by a small group of white men. Do you really think they understood what a black "power couple" meant to you? They don't get it. And I don't get why you expected them to get it.

That's b.s./ These are professional writers. IT's more about them not bothering and not thinking it's important.

I'm not saying this is every writer but still.