Minorities and Other Issues in Comics Thread/Community IV

[Froggy]

It was in Wolverine in the 616, then the dreadful AOA anniversary issue which was really weird because I'm pretty sure he and Aurora died in the original run. And the final one was X-Men The End. I think most other LGBT characters have been treated better in terms of deaths. I think just the gay characters from X-statix and Ultimate Colossus were the only other deaths I can think off of the top of my head.

it was the AOA one, that's the one I didn't know about. I don't think they died in the original story, just that they were beaten up an awful lot and like half brain dead.

I still say uh Phyla got the creepiest death in recent history

I remember the wolverine one, then my cousin told me about the x-men: the end one as he summarized the story

[Kieran_Frost]

Oh god...

*roll eyes*
I've added: (obviously I'm not meaning passed-out; or near incoherant) for those intentionally jumping to the extreme scenario in these kind of situations; which was painfully obviously NOT what I was refering to.

i said lgbt never had bad deaths like POC Characters. You just assume All I care about is black characters once again. Heck my main example was Skin who was a Hispanic Character.

You are absoultely right, apologies. I have edited my post.

Also Daken counts as Both LGBT and POC.

Your original poster said: Also frost you say it's the same put its not when was the last te marvel railroaded or brutally killed off an lgbt character? You didn't specify only white LGBT. I also listed (along with Ms. Victoria Hand and Phyla).

REPEAT OF THE LIST YOU IGNORED:
2) remember the debacle when Northstar was killed three times, in three different comics, in the same month?
3) Vivisector was killed off panel by a sniper in X-statix (where Phat, Doop and Bloke were also killed)
4) everyone keeps forgetting Jennifer Kale is bisexual; so that's two LGBT characters killed in Bendis' arc (off panel too)
5) Freedom Ring being impaled but a thousands and one phallic shapped objects; and then his death is celebrated by an haram of women (tasteful).

Don't just focus on Daken; to avoid the very real point being made. LGBT characters have had bad deaths too.

As for the no count: 1. He is a Villain not a Hero. 2. He is both bisexual and Half Asian which means he can get counted in the crappy POC death column.

He's pretty much the ONLY LGBT on-going solo star at Marvel, and had his own series. Villain or hero, he is more than just "a villain in a comic"; and very much counts (being a solo star).

a)considering how Wolverine has been written, that shouldn't surprise you dude. The Sabretooth thing, he'll get his but right now they're too busy having him be Kingpin East

Oh, I mean the contrast is Remender's fault, very much so; not Logan's.

b)considering how you feel about that, maybe you should see where some of the other folks in this thread are coming from about certain issues related to race/gender in comics, right? I can get where you're coming from with this, but when has Wolverine EVER been knowledgeable of Daken's sexuality? When has he ever NOT been a heteronormative character outside of X-treme X-men?

I would think the interaction with Romulus would have clued Wolverine in, but yeah... fair point about Wolverine's "visions"; why would he know?

c)kind of makes me think if you can drown Daken you can drown wolvie
after Dark Angel Saga X-force has been mehhh

I have loved certain aspects of "Final Execution"; I found the Fantomex issue very moving, and the "future imperfect" Minority Report-esq min-arc was a very good analysis of where this train of thought leads; but overall it was merely "good"; where as previous arcs have been EPIC! I think now is a good time for Remender to move off the comic; and hand the reigns over to others. That said, the Dark Angel Saga (to me) was one of the best X-stories of the last ten years; so obviously it won't compare too well to that.

[Froggy]

yeah but you had to figure Sabretooth wasn't gonna go down, and even if he did it wasn't happening here or in front of Evan/Kid apocalypse

As for cluing wolverine in, I don't think he trusts ANYTHING Romulus does, so he'd take it with a grain of salt. Romulus whole job is basically to troll wolverine

[Kieran_Frost]

Yo, so was that Monica looking through the window in Avengers #1?
Is she the new Captain Universe? That would be fucking awesome.

It never occured to me Captain Universe might be Monica, but that would be AWESOME if it was (when I heard the description I did think "how odd... why not just use Monica?")

Glad to see Hickman using a lot of diversity on the Avengers rescue team. I spotted Shang Chi, Spider-Woman, Captain Marvel, Sunfire, Falcon, Maybe Monica, Eden, and I'm not sure who the "T" woman is.

Fingers crossed they get used; the first issues sounds like a Cap, Iron Man, Hulk and Thor fest... yey... straight white men... hopefully the good diversity ISN'T going to turn into Carol "leading" the Mighty Avengers situation.

I kinda agree. I had problems with that issue of the book myself. It was good but the drowning thing was kinda...i dont know how to put it. lol.
I dont remember him sparing Sabretooth. I'll have to go back and look at that.

After standing up from drowning his only son, Sabertooth brags that he set it all up to torment Wolverine, Evan goes in to kill Sabertooth for his part in all it; and Wolverine stops Evan, saying "killing is not the answer" (paraphrased). Earlier Betsy could have killed/destroyed Shadowking, and again said that "murder is not the answer".

yeah but you had to figure Sabretooth wasn't gonna go down, and even if he did it wasn't happening here or in front of Evan/Kid apocalypse

It's Remender's exectuion (pun) I have an issue with (and I love this work). He kills the POC LGBT character, then makes a point of sparing two (far more vile) characters with "killing is not the answer". It sends a bad message; and should have been done differently. If both Shadow King and Sabertooth ESCAPE... fine; like Mystique, Wolverine can't help that. But you can't kill your son then say "murder isn't the answer" without the reader thinking "WTF? Why not use that logic for Daken?" If that makes sense?

Let me be clear, I don't believe for a second Remender did it maliciously; nor would I boycott his work or think badly of him as a person (that's silly). I understand why it happened, he was focused on killing Daken to explore Wolverine's pain and motivations and opinions; but (because of that focus) ignored Daken as a character (the female prom date, for example). How did his death or the set-up really explore him as a person? As with many deaths of minority characters, it's not so much they died, it's HOW they died and did the writer fully realise the implications of the delivery? Daken wasn't on Remender's mind when he killed him, Wolverine was. It's a shame. It's a valid example of an LGBT character suffering a "bad death" BUT I don't object to the death itself (as in, Daken dying, as much as I adore him); nor do I think it was an illogical or odd way for the story to end. With a little tweaky, it wouldv'e been fine. That's all.

[Froggy]

I don't think remender did it maliciously, it was one of those things where the writer doesn't realize the implications, sort of like Bendis giving a black character the name Jefferson Davis, which unfortunately is also the name of the president of the Confederate States of America, which isn't a good look you know?


yeah I don't think no one here thought you objected to the death, just the way it was done, which is why someone brought up Phyla Vell earlier in the thread and the creepy ending she had

For wolverine: the whole murdering thing I've (tried to amount to) is him realizing that he's already stained his hands, but he doesn't want Evan too since it might lead us to Apocalypse, The Sequel

I don't think he could "kill" Shadow King though,dude has survived some insane ass deaths

[SilverZeal]

I don't have a dog in this fight as I never read the book except for the Moon Knight crossover.

Daken's comic did well enough when it was called Dark Wolverine.
When they changed the title to Daken: Dark Wolverine the problems began.

Since it had the same creative team (or same writer team) on it, I can only assumer that retailers would rather buy a comic
called Dark Wolverine than a comic called Daken.

Marvel probably should have titled X23's comic Wolverine Origins: Featuring X23 while they were at it.

That kind of direct branding has always worked well for DC (its the only reason Batwing and Batwoman are still being published, IMO).

If anything killed Daken's book it was probably the end of Bendis version of Dark Avengers. If the character in question isn't an
old guard mainstay character like Superman or Spider-Man they sorta need to be in an ongoing popular team book to matter to fans to be worth buying.

As far as Daken's being a serial rapist goes-dude is also an unrepentant murderer. You have to WANT to read about an unrepenatant sociopath that always gets away with it to like the character.

Bomb Queen is a pretty good equivalent for the kind of character Daken seems to be.

Uhm...fans of Dexter tv series?

[Greg Anderson]

You have got to be kidding me. The damn discussion got moved?

[Kid Kamikaze10]

You have got to be kidding me. The damn discussion got moved?

Yeah, I have absolutely no idea why it was knocked over to the X-Boards.

Since it fits directly into this thread's original discussion of minorities in comics. Nevermind what the thread has turned into (minorities in entertainment media).

But I'm not going to the X-Boards to talk about it. So I guess we just lost the Daken part of the discussion.

[Greg Anderson]

Yeah, I have absolutely no idea why it was knocked over to the X-Boards.

Since it fits directly into this thread's original discussion of minorities in comics. Nevermind what the thread has turned into (minorities in entertainment media).

But I'm not going to the X-Boards to talk about it. So I guess we just lost the Daken part of the discussion.

Seriously, this whole removing discussions from this community thread is very disheartening and annoying.

[Greg Anderson]

And not only was it moved, they closed it.

[GarageGlamorous]

I'm considering making a thread about how women's struggles are treated in comics (less from a strictly sexual perspective and more from a general one). Should I just post what would have been the OP in here since this seems to be the catch-all discussion topic for hot button comic issues? I'm sure there's been a few threads on it before, but none in recent memory.

And yes, I realize I'd be essentially setting off a ticking time bomb. It does, however, need to be discussed maturely. Maybe this would be the best place to do it.

[Greg Anderson]

I'm considering making a thread about how women's struggles are treated in comics (less from a strictly sexual perspective and more from a general one). Should I just post what would have been the OP in here since this seems to be the catch-all discussion topic for hot button comic issues? I'm sure there's been a few threads on it before, but none in recent memory.

And yes, I realize I'd be essentially setting off a ticking time bomb. It does, however, need to be discussed maturely. Maybe this would be the best place to do it.

Hey, GG. Welcome to the thread. I don't think anyone here will have an issue if you presented the topic here. But I do think having it a separate thread could get noticed from people who don't really check this thread out and who would have passed it due to not coming in.

[Moose100]

I'm considering making a thread about how women's struggles are treated in comics (less from a strictly sexual perspective and more from a general one). Should I just post what would have been the OP in here since this seems to be the catch-all discussion topic for hot button comic issues? I'm sure there's been a few threads on it before, but none in recent memory.

And yes, I realize I'd be essentially setting off a ticking time bomb. It does, however, need to be discussed maturely. Maybe this would be the best place to do it.

Seriously, ticking time bombs is this thread's bread and butter. Please post your thoughts. Women issues are an integral part of this thread.

Welcome to the thread.

[GarageGlamorous]

Seriously, ticking time bombs is this thread's bread and butter. Please post your thoughts. Women issues are an integral part of this thread.

Welcome to the thread.

I went ahead and made a seperate thread to give the issue a signal boost.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com...1#post16264851

For your reading pleasure. God help us all.

[Moose100]

I went ahead and made a seperate thread to give the issue a signal boost.

http://forums.comicbookresources.com...1#post16264851

For your reading pleasure. God help us all.

It's ok. The regular poster's in this thread are vets at this lol. If you read some of the older threads you'll see what I mean.

They may merge that thread with this one