Minorities and Other Issues in Comics Thread/Community IV

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Meanwhile, Michael Holt is the mental slave of Terry Sloan in this week's Earth 2.


More comics with unfortunate implications after the break.




(But seriously, it was a pretty good issue. Robinson has definitely found his groove on that title)

[Kieran_Frost]

No, but it matters. Diversity isn't just a numbers game. This is storytelling, not fantasy football.

Exactly. Quality comes into play as well.

Obviously I agree quality matters (and for the record, I ADORE Daken, he's my #3rd favourite comic character EVER) BUT... when discussing diversity; the arguement "they don't count, because they are sh*t" isn't a) helpful, or b) going to get us anywhere. Surely you see that? When we can discount characters in diversity discussions because WE personally don't like the character... How will that benefit anyone?

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Sometimes a minority character that is barely a character, or even worse, is littered with unfortunate implications/characterizations just isn't helpful or progressive either.

[Kieran_Frost]

Sometimes a minority character that is barely a character, or even worse, is littered with unfortunate implications/characterizations just isn't helpful or progressive either.

Fine; as long as you feel the arguement "ah, but that character doesn't count in our discussion of diversity, because I think he's sh*t" is a fair and just rebuttle... I look forward debating issues of minorities in comics with you in the future. Remember... YOU support this train of thought; you think it's a good arguement...

[marvell2100]

No, but it matters. Diversity isn't just a numbers game. This is storytelling, not fantasy football.

Exactly. Quality comes into play as well.

Speaking of quality, just read Avengers #1. Loved it.

That's the other part of the equation that's missing. It's not having diversity for the sake of diversity. It's about having quality characters that reflect the world around us that alot of comics seem to be trying to emulate. I work with a lot of diverse people in regards to race, religion, gender and sexual preference. And there's more than one of each too(go figure!). If Marvel, DC or any company is going to put out comics that inject some realism into their fantasy, then a better reflection of their readership and society as a whole would be a most welcome thing.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Fine; as long as you feel the arguement "ah, but that character doesn't count, because I think he's sh*t" is a fair and just rebuttle... I look forward debating issues of minorities in comics with you in the future. Remember... YOU support this train of thought; you think it's a good arguement...

That's not my argument. Or Michael's.

[marvell2100]

Obviously I agree quality matters (and for the record, I ADORE Daken, he's my #3rd favourite comic character EVER) BUT... when discussing diversity; the arguement "they don't count, because they are sh*t" isn't a) helpful, or b) going to get us anywhere. Surely you see that? When we can discount characters in diversity discussions because WE personally don't like the character... How will that benefit anyone?

They're not discounting Daken because of his sexual preference. They don't like him because he's a serial-rapist.

[Kieran_Frost]

That's not my argument. Or Michael's.

Do you agree Daken (an LGBT character) had a bad death? Oh... and (for those who haven't read the issue) to make matters worse, Wolverine's "dreams of what his son could be" while he kills him involves Daken going to prom with a woman. So not only is an LGBT killed in an awfully offensive way, but the message of "if only he had turned out different and had a normal life" is very much implying NOT bisexual. Ugh! It was a horrible death; whether you like the character or not, you cannot ignore what was done to him.

They're not discounting Daken because of his sexual preference. They don't like him because he's a serial-rapist.

Whether the like him or not is not relevant to whether an LGBT character had a somewhat offensive death or not. How am I the only one who gets that???

[Vic Vega]

Or at least one that isn't a rapist.

I don't have a dog in this fight as I never read the book except for the Moon Knight crossover.

Daken's comic did well enough when it was called Dark Wolverine.
When they changed the title to Daken: Dark Wolverine the problems began.

Since it had the same creative team (or same writer team) on it, I can only assumer that retailers would rather buy a comic
called Dark Wolverine than a comic called Daken.

Marvel probably should have titled X23's comic Wolverine Origins: Featuring X23 while they were at it.

That kind of direct branding has always worked well for DC (its the only reason Batwing and Batwoman are still being published, IMO).

If anything killed Daken's book it was probably the end of Bendis version of Dark Avengers. If the character in question isn't an
old guard mainstay character like Superman or Spider-Man they sorta need to be in an ongoing popular team book to matter to fans to be worth buying.

As far as Daken's being a serial rapist goes-dude is also an unrepentant murderer. You have to WANT to read about an unrepenatant sociopath that always gets away with it to like the character.

Bomb Queen is a pretty good equivalent for the kind of character Daken seems to be.

[AgPhoenix]

Fine; as long as you feel the arguement "ah, but that character doesn't count in our discussion of diversity, because I think he's sh*t" is a fair and just rebuttle... I look forward debating issues of minorities in comics with you in the future. Remember... YOU support this train of thought; you think it's a good arguement...

Talk about missing the point, something you've been doing since you've replied to my post 2 weeks back. Quite frankly, Daken has a multi-fold problem, with two of the big problems being that he's 1) a new character and 2) such an irredeemable personage with nearly zero dimension to speak of. Usually the first problem is enough to get a character killed, no matter how well she or he's constructed, and when you add problem number 2 to the list, Daken better have a Champion in his corner or he's never going to get much play.

Now as for his death, I'm not going to comment on the particulars, because I don't know how it went down, but just as there shouldn't be one Black Male to represent all PoCs, Daken shouldn't be one of its' most famous LGBT's either, especially when you can argue he's their highest profile one.

[AgPhoenix]

I don't have a dog in this fight as I never read the book except for the Moon Knight crossover.

Daken's comic did well enough when it was called Dark Wolverine.
When they changed the title to Daken: Dark Wolverine the problems began.

Since it had the same creative team (or same writer team) on it, I can only assumer that retailers would rather buy a comic
called Dark Wolverine than a comic called Daken.

Marvel probably should have titled X23's comic Wolverine Origins: Featuring X23 while they were at it.

That kind of direct branding has always worked well for DC (its the only reason Batwing and Batwoman are still being published, IMO).

If anything killed Daken's book it was probably the end of Bendis version of Dark Avengers. If the character in question isn't an
old guard mainstay character like Superman or Spider-Man they sorta need to be in an ongoing popular team book to matter to fans to be worth buying.

As far as Daken's being a serial rapist goes-dude is also an unrepentant murderer. You have to WANT to read about an unrepenatant sociopath that always gets away with it to like the character.

Bomb Queen is a pretty good equivalent for the kind of character Daken seems to be.

And Bomb Queen on her WORST day has been written better than Daken on his BEST.

[marvell2100]

Do you agree Daken (an LGBT character) had a bad death? Oh... and (for those who haven't read the issue) to make matters worse, Wolverine's "dreams of what his son could be" while he kills him involves Daken going to prom with a woman. So not only is an LGBT killed in an awfully offensive way, but the message of "if only he had turned out different and had a normal life" is very much implying NOT bisexual. Ugh! It was a horrible death; whether you like the character or not, you cannot ignore what was done to him.


Whether the like him or not is not relevant to whether an LGBT character had a somewhat offensive death or not. How am I the only one who gets that???

Because you continue to narrowly focus on one thing that someone says instead of taking it into the broader context.

[Kieran_Frost]

Quite frankly, Daken has a multi-fold problem, with two of the big problems being that he's 1) a new character and 2) such an irredeemable personage with nearly zero dimension to speak of. Usually the first problem is enough to get a character killed, no matter how well she or he's constructed, and when you add problem number 2 to the list, Daken better have a Champion in his corner or he's never going to get much play.

I would disagree. His solo series gave him lots of complex issues and feelings; it's only when he's written in a Wolverine story as a catalyst to let Wolverine play his violin does his character become 2D "I hate my dad."

Now as for his death, I'm not going to comment on the particulars, because I don't know how it went down, but just as there shouldn't be one Black Male to represent all PoCs, Daken shouldn't be one of its' most famous LGBT's either, especially when you can argue he's their highest profile one.

Who is saying he's the ultimate representation of LGBT? He's merely a very prominent LGBT character, who was given as an example of an LGBT character who had a less than respectable death.

If anything killed Daken's book it was probably the end of Bendis version of Dark Avengers. If the character in question isn't an
old guard mainstay character like Superman or Spider-Man they sorta need to be in an ongoing popular team book to matter to fans to be worth buying.

Daken works best when he manipulates, and for that he needs a big cast. Once he no-longer had the Dark Avengers to play with, his stories lost focus. He needs to join the Hellfire Club, or something; to make a solo comic work.

As far as Daken's being a serial rapist goes-dude is also an unrepentant murderer. You have to WANT to read about an unrepenatant sociopath that always gets away with it to like the character.

I'm not sure where the serial rapist is coming from??? Did I miss something?

Because you continue to narrowly focus on one thing that someone says instead of taking it into the broader context.

So what am I missing? I really don't get it. Either Daken is LGBT or not. Either he had a rubbish death or not. I don't get how whether people like his character or not makes any difference to those two things? Does Blue Marvel being an awful Mary Sue changed whether he's black or not? Change whether he gets ignored or not? Surely opinion on the character doesn't effect these things???

[Kid Kamikaze10]

More unfortunate implications in comics this week.

Peter Parker reliving the memories of Doc Ock boning his Aunt.


YAY!

[Vic Vega]

More unfortunate implications in comics this week.

Peter Parker reliving the memories of Doc Ock boning his Aunt.


YAY!

After that, Pete will probably want to die but will leap out of his deathbed, illness and all
to throw Doc Ock a beating just for making him live thru that.

With THAT as a motivator, Pete can't lose no matter how screwed he is right now.

As far as the other stuff goes Daken's powers pretty much mean that anybody who has sex with him had it non consentually. That is they were raped.

Since Daken is an evil S.O.B. with no ethical qualms about this power (or its use/misuse) he's doesn't get the benefit
of the doubt that the similarly powered Starfox got (and, at least Starfox got rid of his power when he realized its effed up implications).

So Dakan gets no sympathy because he is an unrepentant serial rapist and B) as a Wolverine knockoff he diminishes that character's(Wolverine) value.

So those folks that want to see him dead (or stay dead) do so because of those reasons not because he is LGBT.
If Daken were straight Mike P would still hate the characters (not to speak for Mike-he can speak for himself).