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  1. #4771
    R.I.P. Dwayne McDuffie Greg Anderson's Avatar
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    Yeah, I really dislike the idea of Daken/Johnny being a couple. I'm not even so sure why it irritated me so much, but I think it's mostly due to me being annoyed at how some people always look at a strong bond/friendship between two guys to be homosexual in nature and also adding that people tend to get suspect if a straight man and a queer guy are very close friends. Just because a queer guy is best buds with a straight guy doesn't mean he has ulterior motives. They could just be really great friends. I liked that whole idea of Daken and Johnny, especially given how different they are and that Johnny may be the one person who he could show a bit of a friendship with, despite how extremely unlikely and random that friendship could be especially with one being a villain and the other a hero. Heck, I've become close buds with some folks who I would have never expected due to our differences.
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  2. #4772
    Elder Member SilverZeal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Anderson View Post
    My issue with the whole Young Avengers thing with Miss America and Eli is not that she's replacing him as the character of color, but more so that we can't have both of them on the same team. It annoys me only seeing ONE racial minority on a team and people brand that as diverse. That is in no way diverse. While I applaud the book for having two queer members, it's still lacking in other aspects.

    Also, something that's been on my mind lately, it seems when a team has two queer characters, the first thing that's done is that they hook up and always seem to be compatible, etc. I'd like to see this formula changed at some point because life doesn't always work out that way when you have two or more queer people in the same setting. There's a crap ton of issues that arise, whether it be not being each other's type, different philosophy or personality, etc. While I don't mind seeing Shatterstar/Rictor, Apollo/Midnighter, we need more than the typical "hook the two guys into guys" up storyline.
    Very well said...agreed & co-signd!

  3. #4773
    The Professional marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    I do agree; I so disliked the assumption that Anole and Graymalkin would get together "just" because they were two gays in the same room (and VERY pleased they didn't, which is a good example). Northstar and Karma are both LGBT characters on the same cast. The thing is, so few comics have LGBT characters, when they do... it kind of is to pair them up. It doesn't always happen Anole/Graymalkin, Skein/Amazon.
    SIDE NOTE: You know Greg, I have been thinking on this a while... while I do LOVE the idea of Johnny/Daken... I actually think your idea is far more progressive and helpful; if Johnny and Daken are BFF's, would be a lot more powerful than them as a couple (which too many fans will hate till the day they die). So I doff my hat to you, your idea/solution is better. Plus, it adds to stripping away the steroetype that gay men can't be best friends with straight men (ALL my best friends are straight guys).



    It's a catch-22; you hook up the only two black characters on the team, and it's labelled "forced". Which is silly:
    a) Marvel doesn't have any black couplings now, right? So can it seemed forced, when it never happens (Synch/M are the last black couple I can think of off a team)
    b) how often are two black characters in the same comic (or any race of the same race). The last one I can think of was Luke Cage/Centurius... and they are NOT a couple.
    The only ones who call it forced are the ones with their own agendas behind such statements. Two minority characters engaged in a relationship with each other being described as forced is a big load of crap. As for how often are two black characters in the same comic, doesn't that go back to the argument that most are making on this thread? Diversity in comics and other medium? More than the obligatory one or two characters allowed per team?
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  4. #4774
    BUY LOKI: AGENT OF ASGARD Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Anderson View Post
    Yeah, I really dislike the idea of Daken/Johnny being a couple. I'm not even so sure why it irritated me so much, but I think it's mostly due to me being annoyed at how some people always look at a strong bond/friendship between two guys to be homosexual in nature and also adding that people tend to get suspect if a straight man and a queer guy are very close friends. Just because a queer guy is best buds with a straight guy doesn't mean he has ulterior motives. They could just be really great friends. I liked that whole idea of Daken and Johnny, especially given how different they are and that Johnny may be the one person who he could show a bit of a friendship with, despite how extremely unlikely and random that friendship could be especially with one being a villain and the other a hero. Heck, I've become close buds with some folks who I would have never expected due to our differences.
    Hey, I'm converted, trust me. I'm now on the Daken/Johnny BFF band-wagon. a) it could happen, them as a couple wouldn't, and b) it could capture all of the awesome of Rockslide/Anole. BUT... there is another example of a gay/straight coupling (as in friendship) that breaks the mold. Anole's all kinds of awesome. It would be a chance (as you say) to see one of the few people Daken won't screw over. A bit like Hannibal/Clarice in the Silence of the Lambs (1991). The one person who he won't kill. AND... it makes Johnny far less shallow, and interesting. Win win.

    Quote Originally Posted by marvell2100 View Post
    The only ones who call it forced are the ones with their own agendas behind such statements. Two minority characters engaged in a relationship with each other being described as forced is a big load of crap.
    Agreed. In Britain, interracial couples are numerous, but in America there are TONS of same-race couples; it's fair game to see that in comics too.

    Quote Originally Posted by marvell2100 View Post
    As for how often are two black characters in the same comic, doesn't that go back to the argument that most are making on this thread? Diversity in comics and other medium? More than the obligatory one or two characters allowed per team?
    No... the arguement of criticising Young Avengers "sudden" lack of diversity; when the number of POC, LGBT members and women hasn't changed isn't the same thing as wanting two POC on a team. To put it another way... when Eli was a member, how many were saying the team needed a second POC? It's not the same arguement, I assure you.
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  5. #4775
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    Why is Young Avengers lumped together as "open doors/inclusive"??? The Young Avengers have had the same members since day one; this is the FIRST time some new blood is joining since Speed. It's not "the Avengers kids book" the way Academy or the Initiative was... the membership of Young Avengers is locked in (due to the original stimulus of the team) as the Illuminati... which gets a pass for A LOT LESS diversity. Uncanny Avengers, sure. Remender wanted Storm and Voodoo () and got denied; so it would have been better... sooooo much better, it might have saved that car-crash first issue.
    It wasn't locked in enough for Eli and Cassie to not be limbo'd/dead. Or for Kid Loki and MAC to show up.

    There's a huge difference between a group of kids and the intelligentsia of the Marvel Universe. One of them is WAY more flexible.


    BTW, I wanted more POCs in Young Avengers. For three reasons. One because it was just Eli. And two because most fans hate Eli. Three because there are quite a few POC kid characters that are constantly limbo'd.



    Now, I'm not the people who say YA has suddenly lacked diversity. I'm saying that Gillen had the chance to improve it, and decided not to.
    Last edited by Double 0; 12-03-2012 at 12:50 PM.
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  6. #4776
    The Professional marvell2100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kieran_Frost View Post
    No... the arguement of criticising Young Avengers "sudden" lack of diversity; when the number of POC, LGBT members and women hasn't changed isn't the same thing as wanting two POC on a team. To put it another way... when Eli was a member, how many were saying the team needed a second POC? It's not the same arguement, I assure you.
    People have been making the argument for years of increased minority presence in comics. Just because they don't call YA out be name doesn't mean that it isn't included. Playing on words doesn't change that.

    Everytime someone asks for more minorities the oppositon always argues "_________" is already on the team. And when a team does have two or more minorities, it's described as forced. So contrary to what you may think, it's the same argument.
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  7. #4777
    Psychological violence Moose100's Avatar
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    Good point. If crap happens to straight characters in terms of relationships why not gay characters?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Anderson View Post
    My issue with the whole Young Avengers thing with Miss America and Eli is not that she's replacing him as the character of color, but more so that we can't have both of them on the same team. It annoys me only seeing ONE racial minority on a team and people brand that as diverse. That is in no way diverse. While I applaud the book for having two queer members, it's still lacking in other aspects.

    Also, something that's been on my mind lately, it seems when a team has two queer characters, the first thing that's done is that they hook up and always seem to be compatible, etc. I'd like to see this formula changed at some point because life doesn't always work out that way when you have two or more queer people in the same setting. There's a crap ton of issues that arise, whether it be not being each other's type, different philosophy or personality, etc. While I don't mind seeing Shatterstar/Rictor, Apollo/Midnighter, we need more than the typical "hook the two guys into guys" up storyline.

  8. #4778
    BUY LOKI: AGENT OF ASGARD Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    It wasn't locked in enough for Eli and Cassie to not be limbo'd/dead. Or for Kid Loki and MAC to show up.
    There's a huge difference between a group of kids and the intelligentsia of the Marvel Universe. One of them is WAY more flexible.
    a) the Illuminati could die too (Xavier); their membership isn't set in stone like that either.
    b) Young Avengers isn't just about kid under the Avengers banner, it's about a legacy. Not many kids match that. Victor does. Cho does. Which is why I want one of them to join. But Mettle, Hazmat... they don't fit that (for example). It's not an open door policy, it has as many qualifiers as the Illuminati... which gets a free pass from the same posters who attack Young Avengers "sudden" change in diversity (which hasn't changed).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    BTW, I wanted more POCs in Young Avengers. For three reasons. One because it was just Eli. And two because most fans hate Eli. Three because there are quite a few POC kid characters that are constantly limbo'd.
    Now, I'm not the people who say YA has suddenly lacked diversity. I'm saying that Gillen had the chance to improve it, and decided not to.
    He still might; I'm still holding out for Amadeus Cho or Victor Mancha to join (since both have HUGE claims to the Young Avengers mantle). BUT... Gillen doesn't need to improve diversity in an already diverse team. Until nearly every other Marvel comics meets Young Avengers excellent diversity ratio... I don't see how anyone would aim any criticism at this comic (ESPECIALLY before they royally attack New Avengers). Once I see the same posters who rail against Young Avengers go through every other comic, saying it's not diverse enough and THEN attack Young Avengers, sure. That hasn't happened. Young Avengers is targeted before most other comics at Marvel. I am highlighting WHY that could be happening now, and calling them out on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by marvell2100 View Post
    People have been making the argument for years of increased minority presence in comics. Just because they don't call YA out be name doesn't mean that it isn't included. Playing on words doesn't change that.
    It's not playing on words; when posters say Marvel needs more diversity, that doesn't mean ALL comics, in means "in general" (I never took those call to -- in any way -- mean a comic like Young Avengers, or a comic like Generation X). I don't consider "the need for more diversity" is aimed at Black Panther's solo comic, or Fearless Defenders, do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by marvell2100 View Post
    Everytime someone asks for more minorities the oppositon always argues "_________" is already on the team. And when a team does have two or more minorities, it's described as forced. So contrary to what you may think, it's the same argument.
    I don't recall many calling a lot of diverse comics "forced". I haven't hear anyone call Uncanny X-force's upcoming roster as that, for example. And it's not the same arguement, because the "sudden" unacceptable diversity of Young Avengers only happened AFTER Eli left... THAT what I am highlighting. The sudden influx of calling for diversity in that comic, when I rarely (if ever) so such complaints before Eli left. The catalyst is pretty clear....
    Last edited by Kieran_Frost; 12-03-2012 at 01:40 PM.
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  9. #4779
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    YOU see it as after Eli left.

    I, and others see it as before the relaunch.


    Again, Gillen had a chance to remake the YA however he liked. It didn't have to be about legacies anymore. Hell, it isn't anymore.


    He chose to keep the roster relatively the same. So I totally understand the complaints on YA. Just like I do for New Avengers.

    I just not agree with the New Avengers one because the choices were FAR more limited. There were two very strict requirements for that team. Top tier intelligence and/or top-tier political resources. You have to be an extremely vital asset within the Marvel Universe. You keep making up these requirements for YA that didn't have to be there.


    For New Avengers to be the most intelligent and politically powerful team in the Marvel Universe, the options were far more limited than picking from the vast amount of teen heroes in Marvel.
    Last edited by Double 0; 12-03-2012 at 02:10 PM.
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  10. #4780
    BUY LOKI: AGENT OF ASGARD Kieran_Frost's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    YOU see it as after Eli left.
    I, and others see it as before the relaunch.
    Again, Gillen had a chance to remake the YA however he liked. He chose to keep it relatively the same.
    Could you link me to the thread discussing Young Avengers disappointing diversity from BEFORE Eli left?
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  11. #4781
    Elder Member Vic Vega's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    It wasn't locked in enough for Eli and Cassie to not be limbo'd/dead. Or for Kid Loki and MAC to show up.

    There's a huge difference between a group of kids and the intelligentsia of the Marvel Universe. One of them is WAY more flexible.


    BTW, I wanted more POCs in Young Avengers. For three reasons. One because it was just Eli. And two because most fans hate Eli. Three because there are quite a few POC kid characters that are constantly limbo'd.

    Bit off topic but: Y'know, I don't even believe most fans hate Eli.

    I'll buy indifferent to as he hasn't appeared in too many comics because of all the YA hiatuses(Is that a word?) and artist delays.

    Message Boards are echo chambers.

    There are maybe 10,000 posters on a board like this max. Even if everyone of them had similar reactions to stuff they'd still
    be in the numerical minority when taking about books that sell in 30K and up range.

    Look at the Bendis haters for example.

    The louder they screamed in outrage the better sales on the Avengers got. Or Greg Land for another example.
    The only time fan outrage ever was an indicator of bad sales was with Chuck Austin, who the fans hated (and he hated them right back).
    I'd also give you Liefield but, it is not the 90's any more and he kind of doesn't really count.

    I've said for a while now you could judge how well something does or is doing by how many posters here hate it(Bendis, Loeb, fill in the blank).

    Nearly everybody here hates Twilight with a passion(I have neither read the books nor seen the movies). Meanwhile, Stephanie Myers
    is probably sitting on a golden throne counting money like that dude in Scarface by now. Well I would be if I was her. :)

    If she got a million tweeners to buy in she is doing something right.

    I notice stuff like this because generally speaking, I want MORE populisism in my comics not less.
    I'd have a greater chance seeing interesting stuff that way.

  12. #4782
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Kamikaze10 View Post
    Yeah, I had a bit of a problem with Ag's question because we (though not myself personally) aren't the only ones being hypocritical when it comes to diversity discussions, but we are the first to be called out on it. (The nail that sticks out is hammered down)
    But the "we" thing....how is commenting on wanting to see black male characters = "we want black characters only"? How does one wanting a black male character in Marvel means that they want no other people of color or ignoring women of color on a team? And how is wanting a black male character on the team = "attacking diversity" when they point out who is on a team? To me, that is not even cool to just come at a segment of people like that. Especially when said segment are individuals who don't think in some hive mind.

    I declined to answer the question because I had a major problem with the original Young Avengers thread as well as the subject.
    Last edited by C-Dot; 12-03-2012 at 02:20 PM.

  13. #4783
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-Dot View Post
    But the "we" thing....how is commenting on wanting to see black male characters = "we want black characters only"? How does one wanting a black male character in Marvel means that they want no other people of color or ignoring women of color on a team? And how is wanting a black male character on the team = "attacking diversity" when they point out who is on a team? To me, that is not even cool to just come at a segment of people like that. Especially when said segment are individuals who don't think in some hive mind.
    Those are some really good points.
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  14. #4784
    Psychological violence Moose100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C-Dot View Post
    But the "we" thing....how is commenting on wanting to see black male characters = "we want black characters only"? How does one wanting a black male character in Marvel means that they want no other people of color or ignoring women of color on a team? And how is wanting a black male character on the team = "attacking diversity" when they point out who is on a team? To me, that is not even cool to just come at a segment of people like that. Especially when said segment are individuals who don't think in some hive mind.

    I declined to answer the question because I had a major problem with the original Young Avengers thread as well as the subject.
    Uh huh. He's doing it again eh?

    Great points. The..either/or thing is coming up again....
    Last edited by Moose100; 12-03-2012 at 02:30 PM.

  15. #4785
    Elder Member Charles RB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Anderson View Post
    Also, something that's been on my mind lately, it seems when a team has two queer characters, the first thing that's done is that they hook up and always seem to be compatible, etc. I'd like to see this formula changed at some point
    X-Statix is standout here - after flirting with the idea that Phat and Vivisector would get together, and whether they were even gay at all and not just doing it for ratings, they realise they're both gay but not into each other at all.
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