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  1. #1
    Illustrator of Stuff Ebonyleopard's Avatar
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    Default AvX: Jean Grey and the Phoenix

    Is it just me or does it seem like the writers don't quite grasp the connection of Jean Grey with the Phoenix in actual comic time rather than the mystique given her and the concept of the Phoenix.


    It seems like a lot of things the Phoenix has done by the current writers is attributed to the real Jean Grey, which isn't correct since all the "Jean Grey as the Phoenix" was done by the phoenix force itself disguised as Jean. Jean has been credited with dying a lot when technically, she's really only died...well once (if you don't count Phoenix Endsong, cause who knows what context of continuity that story takes part in anymore).


    Jean was put in suspended animation by the Phoenix because she WAS dying when trying to pilot the space ship back to earth and was dying from radiation poisoning.

    She was revived by the FF and was the founding member of X-Factor.

    When in X-Factor she started out with only her base powers, telekinesis. She would much later regain telepathy.

    It wasn't until the New X-Men series she started showing Phoenix level powers again and when she fully gained them she was killed by Xorneto.

    In End Song the Phoenix force sorta resurrected her for a short time but was forced to flee and her body was rendered inanimated again.

    When has Jean Grey actually done any other dying other than this or herself actually had the Phoenix force powers?
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  2. #2
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    No...more...Jean threads....

  3. #3
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    Well sure...but then came Morrison.

    He established that Jean is Phoenix and Phoenix is Jean. And even without that, Phoenix created a Jean duplicate that acted exactly as Jean would have, so saying Jean didn't do those things is just semantics.

  4. #4
    A Goddess amongst mortals celestialbodies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ebonyleopard View Post
    Is it just me or does it seem like the writers don't quite grasp the connection of Jean Grey with the Phoenix in actual comic time rather than the mystique given her and the concept of the Phoenix.


    It seems like a lot of things the Phoenix has done by the current writers is attributed to the real Jean Grey, which isn't correct since all the "Jean Grey as the Phoenix" was done by the phoenix force itself disguised as Jean. Jean has been credited with dying a lot when technically, she's really only died...well once (if you don't count Phoenix Endsong, cause who knows what context of continuity that story takes part in anymore).


    Jean was put in suspended animation by the Phoenix because she WAS dying when trying to pilot the space ship back to earth and was dying from radiation poisoning.

    She was revived by the FF and was the founding member of X-Factor.

    When in X-Factor she started out with only her base powers, telekinesis. She would much later regain telepathy.

    It wasn't until the New X-Men series she started showing Phoenix level powers again and when she fully gained them she was killed by Xorneto.

    In End Song the Phoenix force sorta resurrected her for a short time but was forced to flee and her body was rendered inanimated again.

    When has Jean Grey actually done any other dying other than this or herself actually had the Phoenix force powers?
    Quote Originally Posted by Colinp42 View Post
    Well sure...but then came Morrison.

    He established that Jean is Phoenix and Phoenix is Jean. And even without that, Phoenix created a Jean duplicate that acted exactly as Jean would have, so saying Jean didn't do those things is just semantics.



    I was under the impression that AvX retconned the Phoenix in DPS, back into being Jean Grey which was corroborated by Wolverine's very OOC line that it killed her and that the PF was parasitic when in NXM Jean Grey literally explained to him the function of the PF.

  5. #5
    Illustrator of Stuff Ebonyleopard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by celestialbodies View Post
    I was under the impression that AvX retconned the Phoenix in DPS, back into being Jean Grey which was corroborated by Wolverine's very OOC line that it killed her and that the PF was parasitic when in NXM Jean Grey literally explained to him the function of the PF.
    It was Wolverine's line that got me thinking about this because it seemed extremely not just OOC but it didn't tie into any story I was aware of. I just reread the Morrison run, I'm not so sure he necessarily established that Jean and the Phoenix are actually the same entity since he was saying she had begun tapping into the phoenix power. The crossover is confusing if you've read old issues, at all.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Daithi's Avatar
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    I don't understand this thread? AvX clearly shows that Fongji was the original Phoenix and everybody else that followed was copying her?

  7. #7
    Lucidly Dreaming... otipep_90's Avatar
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    Alright I'll end this. As someone who has read all of Jean's stories from X-Men #1 to the DPS, Classic X-Men, the Inferno Crossover, Morrison's New X-Men, and every story from 2000 to today, Jean = Phoenix is completely valid and in continuity. It has not only been reinforced most recently in AvX but in Inferno, Classical X-Men, Morisson's New X-Men, and Endsong.

    When Marvel says Jean = Phoenix they mean Jean Grey was the super-heroine that went by the code name Phoenix and commited sucide on the moon. When the shuttle crashed and Jean was put in stasis to heal, the Phoenix duplicate wasn't a doppelgänger but was a new body that housed Jean Grey's soul/psyche. This means that for a while ther was literallytwo Jean Greys around. Her soul was split into two ver much like the Phoenix Force has been split into 5 in AvX.

    When Jean died on the Moon the half of her soul that was in her new duplicate Phoenix body was sent back to her old body in the cacoon or "Phoenix Egg" as Morisson called it. However the other half of Jean's soul that resided in her old body refused these new memories and experiences because of the mass genocide of the D'Bari.

    So this portion of jean Grey's soul went looking for the next best thing that couldn't refuse it, her cloned Madalyne Pryor. Sinister had created the prfect clone, except it was lifeless, an empty shell that became the new home of that portion of Jean's soul. This is the same situation that happened with the new duplicate body of Jean that was created through the Phoenix Force. Sinister then brainwashed this portion of Jean's soul into thinking it was a woman called Madalyne Pryor in order to give birth to the perfect mutant, Cable.

    At the end of Inferno when all of this was revealed to the X-Men, Jean reasorbed all the portions of her soul (Madalyne Pryor) and became whole for the first tie since the space shuttle crashed.

    So Jean Grey = Phoenix (the heroine, not the Phoenix Force) = Madaylne Pryor = Jean Grey. Literal incarnations of the same woman.

    So could still end up being Hope Summers and Fongji.

  8. #8
    Gallifrey endures. blackphoenix's Avatar
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    The Phoenix Force duplicate of Jean originally just copied Jean's mind and only thought she was Jean, but that was all retconned away by the events of the back up story in Classic X-Men # 8, which revealed that Jean's mind/psyche/soul actually merged with the duplicate body, but leaving some of her consciousness in her original body as well.




    ]



    Thus do I write the first chapter of my new scripture. And the first verse is "Let it all burn."

    PHOENIX INVICTUS!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daithi View Post
    I don't understand this thread? AvX clearly shows that Fongji was the original Phoenix and everybody else that followed was copying her?
    It also showed a polar bear in Antarctica and tectonic plates being glued together with no problem. That Fongji story will either be retconned away or forgotten in time, it just makes things too complicated. Jean and the Phoenix being one is nice and simple, easy to digest for new readers.

  10. #10
    Gallifrey endures. blackphoenix's Avatar
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    nevermind.
    Last edited by blackphoenix; 08-01-2012 at 07:22 PM.
    Thus do I write the first chapter of my new scripture. And the first verse is "Let it all burn."

    PHOENIX INVICTUS!

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  12. #12
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    Jean Grey is just a firey Taco Bell turd that won't flush. Close Thread.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by otipep_90 View Post
    Alright I'll end this. As someone who has read all of Jean's stories from X-Men #1 to the DPS, Classic X-Men, the Inferno Crossover, Morrison's New X-Men, and every story from 2000 to today, Jean = Phoenix is completely valid and in continuity. It has not only been reinforced most recently in AvX but in Inferno, Classical X-Men, Morisson's New X-Men, and Endsong.

    When Marvel says Jean = Phoenix they mean Jean Grey was the super-heroine that went by the code name Phoenix and commited sucide on the moon. When the shuttle crashed and Jean was put in stasis to heal, the Phoenix duplicate wasn't a doppelgänger but was a new body that housed Jean Grey's soul/psyche. This means that for a while ther was literallytwo Jean Greys around. Her soul was split into two ver much like the Phoenix Force has been split into 5 in AvX.

    When Jean died on the Moon the half of her soul that was in her new duplicate Phoenix body was sent back to her old body in the cacoon or "Phoenix Egg" as Morisson called it. However the other half of Jean's soul that resided in her old body refused these new memories and experiences because of the mass genocide of the D'Bari.

    So this portion of jean Grey's soul went looking for the next best thing that couldn't refuse it, her cloned Madalyne Pryor. Sinister had created the prfect clone, except it was lifeless, an empty shell that became the new home of that portion of Jean's soul. This is the same situation that happened with the new duplicate body of Jean that was created through the Phoenix Force. Sinister then brainwashed this portion of Jean's soul into thinking it was a woman called Madalyne Pryor in order to give birth to the perfect mutant, Cable.

    At the end of Inferno when all of this was revealed to the X-Men, Jean reasorbed all the portions of her soul (Madalyne Pryor) and became whole for the first tie since the space shuttle crashed.

    So Jean Grey = Phoenix (the heroine, not the Phoenix Force) = Madaylne Pryor = Jean Grey. Literal incarnations of the same woman.

    So could still end up being Hope Summers and Fongji.
    I really like this theory and want it to be the true one. In fact I am going to just consider it canon, whether Marvel does or not. But is this just your theory or did Marvel really official say so. Only think I don't like is the fact that Maddie is basically Jean herself. I would much rather they retcon Maddie to be her own person who just looks like Jean Grey (as original intended) and work out that Sinister lied and all that.

  14. #14
    EEEEEEEEE! Leirus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the Hornet View Post
    I really like this theory and want it to be the true one. In fact I am going to just consider it canon, whether Marvel does or not. But is this just your theory or did Marvel really official say so. Only think I don't like is the fact that Maddie is basically Jean herself. I would much rather they retcon Maddie to be her own person who just looks like Jean Grey (as original intended) and work out that Sinister lied and all that.
    No, what he is saying seems to be the current canon, as seen in AvX infinity, were Jean Grey is depicted as killing herself in the Moon. (Scott even sees the space gun she used). The only thing I do not agree is about Maddie. She got animated by the Phoenix and a portion of the soul of Jean Grey all right, but along the way she became her own person, owning the fake memories Sinister gave her. That is what lead to her demise when Jean came back and left her with nothing.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by otipep_90 View Post
    Alright I'll end this. As someone who has read all of Jean's stories from X-Men #1 to the DPS, Classic X-Men, the Inferno Crossover, Morrison's New X-Men, and every story from 2000 to today, Jean = Phoenix is completely valid and in continuity. It has not only been reinforced most recently in AvX but in Inferno, Classical X-Men, Morisson's New X-Men, and Endsong.

    When Marvel says Jean = Phoenix they mean Jean Grey was the super-heroine that went by the code name Phoenix and commited sucide on the moon. When the shuttle crashed and Jean was put in stasis to heal, the Phoenix duplicate wasn't a doppelgänger but was a new body that housed Jean Grey's soul/psyche. This means that for a while ther was literallytwo Jean Greys around. Her soul was split into two ver much like the Phoenix Force has been split into 5 in AvX.

    When Jean died on the Moon the half of her soul that was in her new duplicate Phoenix body was sent back to her old body in the cacoon or "Phoenix Egg" as Morisson called it. However the other half of Jean's soul that resided in her old body refused these new memories and experiences because of the mass genocide of the D'Bari.

    So this portion of jean Grey's soul went looking for the next best thing that couldn't refuse it, her cloned Madalyne Pryor. Sinister had created the prfect clone, except it was lifeless, an empty shell that became the new home of that portion of Jean's soul. This is the same situation that happened with the new duplicate body of Jean that was created through the Phoenix Force. Sinister then brainwashed this portion of Jean's soul into thinking it was a woman called Madalyne Pryor in order to give birth to the perfect mutant, Cable.

    At the end of Inferno when all of this was revealed to the X-Men, Jean reasorbed all the portions of her soul (Madalyne Pryor) and became whole for the first tie since the space shuttle crashed.

    So Jean Grey = Phoenix (the heroine, not the Phoenix Force) = Madaylne Pryor = Jean Grey. Literal incarnations of the same woman.

    So could still end up being Hope Summers and Fongji.
    Thanks thats what understand in the end of inferno, that maddie was reasorbed in jean and became one, and maddie 2.0 was created by nate, this explanation is what makes more sense to me.

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