How much of Dark Reign to AvX is Tony Stark's fault?

[Wellman]

SI was Tony's fault in that he was trying to do what the people wanted in standardizing super heroes and vigilantes but the people are fickle and placed it all his door step when he was hit by a unforeseen crisis that knocked the entire world for a loop. But mainly it was the Skrulls

AvX can be traced back to the arrogance of Captain America, Cyclops and Hope. But art imitates life and all of Marvel's major events just like their real problems seem to stem from poor communication.

[liopleurodon]

Civil War was the New Warriors fault.

Secret Invasion was Tony's.

Dark Reign was the US Government's.

Siege was Loki's.

Fear Itself was Odin's.

AvX you can argue that it is either Cable's fault or Wanda's.

Civil War could have been avoided if Tony had not had delusions of war-profiteering.

Secret Invasion was definitely his fault.

Dark Reign was made possible by Tony's epic failure as head of SHIELD.

Siege was Osborn and Loki.

AvX is Cyclops' and Captain's fault. The P5 was due to Tony's hubris thinking he could destroy a cosmic force.

My point is ... Tony has been responsible, or at least partly to blame for most of the problems of the past decade.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, WWH was the fault of the Illuminati, which Tony is a part of. And FI I have erased from my mind because of how awful it was, but I'm sure it was Tony's fault as well.

[mikekerrIII]

I don't remember seeing Tony send people into forced labor camps. I'm guessing what you intended to say was: he threw a bunch of people (who were clearly in defiance of the law) into prison, in which case: you must hate America.

Human experimentation, again; America.

Kidnapping? Does that go with point one? Do I need to repeat myself about America?

Political terrorism? Yeah, you must really hate the country you live in.

Prisons are under the jurisdiction of courts, 42 was not as Tony clearly bragged to Spider-men about in ASM 535.

Human experimentation: When in the last 50 years has the US done involuntary experimentation on Prisoners

Kidnapping: He kidnapped the Hulk, What part of the definition doesn't apply

Political terrorism: He Sent an assassin to commit violence against a diplomat to incite terror in the public so they would back his political cause. That is a text book case of political terrorism

[liopleurodon]

Prisons are under the jurisdiction of courts, 42 was not as Tony clearly bragged to Spider-men about in ASM 535.

Human experimentation: When in the last 50 years has the US done involuntary experimentation on Prisoners

Kidnapping: He kidnapped the Hulk, What part of the definition doesn't apply

Political terrorism: He Sent an assassin to commit violence against a diplomat to incite terror in the public so they would back his political cause. That is a text book case of political terrorism

I think his point is that all these things have been done by the Us gov't at some point in history, which somehow makes it OK?

[The Black Guardian]

Secret Invasion, WWH and Dark Reign were partially his fault.

He was one of the people that put Earth on the Skrulls radar by fucking with them and Shield, the Initiative and the Avengers were infiltrated on his watch.

He was one that came up with the idea of shooting the Hulk into space.

Osborn only came to power because of Stark's incompetence and that didn't really end well. He's not responsible for House of M or AvX though.

He did not put the Earth on the Skrulls radar. The Earth was already on their radar. They had already tried to invade the place several times before the Illuminati did what they did. He was just trying to get them to stop.

SHIELD was infiltrated before his watch. The Initiative and Avengers were, but so was everyone else, and failure does not equal fault.

The alternative to shooting Hulk into space meant that someone was going to at least try to kill him. Shooting Hulk into space was the best option.

Stark's incompetence had nothing to do with Osborn. That was just the political spin and scapegoating.

[deathcry]

I was just going back to Secret Invasion and seeing how the POTUS and Thor put the blame squarely on Starks shoulders for the Skrulls fiasco, and wondering are they right? There has been argument that because Stark put all his eggs in one basket that's why the Skrulls were so easily able to destroy the Earths infrastructure. But really, the Skrulls were going to figure a way to do that even is SHIELD was in charge, so I don't see it as a deal breaker for Stark.

And then there is the bigger question of if Stark didn't take up the case of the Pro-registration side in the Civil War, that the whole series of status quo changes would never have happened either, resulting in the current situation of Avengers vs X-Men. But what if AVX happened before CW? Would it have gone any better than it did after the Heroes lost and had to attack the X-Men as government goons rather than free vigilantes? I don't see it. I think Stark did the best he could do under the circumstances and that the way things panned out with the Initiative, WWH, SI, Dark Reign, Siege, HA, FI, and AVX are not the fault of Tony Stark, and that he's been hung out to dry.

Does anybody feel Stark has a case to answer? I saw Stark standing on his lonesome after SI, a little despondent and alone, and thinking, why is everyone laying this all on Tony? To this day, it's Stark who has been marginalized as the villain of this period in Marvel history.

The Invasion would have happened regardless of Stark being in charge. That was a dumb argument to begin with. Sure it could be argued that Earth's defenses were easier to overcome because of the Civil War, but it could also be argued that the Decimation was a bigger reason the Earth's defenses were weaker (less super powered mutants). In all many things came together to make it easier for the Skrulls, but they would have kept scheming until they found a way.
AvX's roots go back before Civil War/SHRA....Disassembled. House of M(especially).
Certainly the Dark Reign would have been harder if the heroes were united, but Osborn getting power could still have happened.

[Exo]

Prisons are under the jurisdiction of courts, 42 was not as Tony clearly bragged to Spider-men about in ASM 535.

Except the prison was funded by the US government with what I'm guessing the full support of congress, under the advisement of the department of justice etc etc. 42 wasn't exactly a clandestine operation. It was all over the news.

Guantanamo says hi btw.

Human experimentation: When in the last 50 years has the US done involuntary experimentation on Prisoners

So you'll be over your unhealthy obsession with Tony in due time then? It's been almost ten years.

Kidnapping: He kidnapped the Hulk, What part of the definition doesn't apply

OMG reall?! He kidnapped Hulk?! What an a-hole.

Cry me a river.

Political terrorism: He Sent an assassin to commit violence against a diplomat to incite terror in the public so they would back his political cause. That is a text book case of political terrorism

Yawn. I've seen worse atrocities done for less.

At least no one was bombed.

[Exo]

I think his point is that all these things have been done by the Us gov't at some point in history, which somehow makes it OK?

My point is Mikekerr3 has been down this road before. Countless of times over the years.

And he's still going strong!

Me? I'm deteriorating. I'm done having this discussion and with someone who's clearly obsessed. Over a fictional character.

[mikekerrIII]

I think his point is that all these things have been done by the Us gov't at some point in history, which somehow makes it OK?

It doesn't make it OK,Why would anyone think it does, the folks that made those actions illegal for the most part defiantly did not.

"America did it" doesn't make it right, since Americva has done some really foul things in it's history, you just try to make sure it doesn't happen again.

[gregyo]

The only events that haven't been caused directly or indirectly by Tony since House of M: House of M, Siege, Fear Itself. I would say AvX, but Act 2 was entirely Tony's fault.

[celticguy]

I think his point is that all these things have been done by the Us gov't at some point in history, which somehow makes it OK?

It is not even they are ok as much as they can be mined for the basis of fiction.


This whole thread is a rehash of others it will resolve nothing. You wall into one of the following.

You love Tony and can excuse what he did or at least live with it.
you hate him and always will and will never stop bitchin about it.
You could care less either way
You enjoy a character with clay feet and like a character used in a different way.

[celticguy]

My point is Mikekerr3 has been down this road before. Countless of times over the years.

And he's still going strong!

Me? I'm deteriorating. I'm done having this discussion and with someone who's clearly obsessed. Over a fictional character.

Which I assume the OP knew was going to happen and Mike like an Or gan grinder's chimp danced to the tune.

[marvell2100]

Must we do this again?

Why not just copy and paste all of the responses from posters from previous threads that blame Tony and just do a "Best of..." thread. We already know where this is headed.

[gregyo]

Must we do this again?

Why not just copy and paste all of the responses from posters from previous threads that blame Tony and just do a "Best of..." thread. We already know where this is headed.

I honestly don't know why this thread was started either.

[EuphemismForSex]

It's so we can laugh at the world "Frault"