The classic Elseworlds & What if

**Captain Midnight** · 07-31-2012, 10:54 PM

Which Elseworlds story from DC & which Marvel What if story do you consider a classic?

**edhopper** · 08-01-2012, 05:17 AM

Originally Posted by Captain Midnight

Which Elseworlds story from DC & which Marvel What if story do you consider a classic?

I don't know about classic, but my favorite is the FF Annual from 1998 by Karl Kessel and Stuart Immonen. It was a story as if the FF were the same from FF #1, aged into their 70s. No Marvel Time, just the real progression of time. Reed and Ben had still fought in WWII, they were still the first Americans in space, etc...Having started to read comics in the silver Age, it really resonated with me. All the changes to the time line were taken away and the "real" FF and other heroes were shown. I felt like this was my FF and the current group was an alternative. Sadly the events of the last decade has only made this feeling a lot stronger, I no longer think of most of Marvel as "my super heroes."

**Jezebel Bond** · 08-01-2012, 07:30 AM

Originally Posted by Captain Midnight

Which Elseworlds story from DC & which Marvel What if story do you consider a classic?

From Elseworlds, "Letitia Lerner, Superman's Babysitter," which got the book shredded because of Superbaby's antics which included biting through an electric wire and being in a microwave. I thought the shredding bit was extreme...everyone knows baby Kal-El is practically indestructible...

From What If?....a bit tough to pick just one and there's a 'best of what if' too....so I'll just pick #1 cuz Spidey's in it and I'm biased. I haven't read most of Volume 2, which put me out well over 100 issues.

**Shellhead** · 08-01-2012, 07:41 AM

I was a Marvel zombie back when What If? first came out, so I bought many issues for the first two years. The best issues were above average comics, like What If? #3 (What if the Avengers had never been?), offering interesting alternate outcomes to classic stories. But none of them were classics. They were disposable, meaningless entertainment that went a little heavy on shock value deaths.

The same could be said about many DC Elseworld comics, but a few stood out as classics:

1. Kingdom Come - Great story. Great art. But what made Kingdom Come so amazing was the timely theme. It was an intelligent deconstruction of the unfortunate trend towards grim and gritty that made so many '90s comics awful. Kingdom Come dared to explore the fundamental differences between heroes and vigilantes and villains. Waid had the audacity to tell the industry that if the end justifies the means, then the "hereos" are no better than villains. At least that's what I got out of it. Kingdom Come is truly classic because there are so many ideas in there that it's open to interpretation and discussion.

2. The Golden Age - Very good story, with very appropriate art. People keep buying bad comics by James Robinson for a reason, because he wrote two of the best runs of the '90s: Starman and The Golden Age. The foundation of DC comics is definitely the golden age of heroics, the era when many of their greatest heroes debuted. But by modern standards, those golden age stories were often crude. Sloppy artwork and slapdash writing that was good enough for kids, but less appealing to adults. Robinson revisited that era and brought those classic characters to life, with real personalities and real problems. I didn't immediately appreciate the Paul Smith artwork, but it was actually a nice approximation of the golden age style. Slightly rough at first glance, but very effective at showing the story. Like the '50s in America, the Golden Age presented an idyllic facade that masked an underlying paranoid tension. This story was so good that it kind of retroactively changed the characterization of some key JSA heroes, like Starman and Hourman.

3. JLA The Nail & JLA: Another Nail - Alan Davis and Mark Farmer tell an entertaining tale of a world without Superman. It's the classic Marvel What If? concept, done to perfection. It's classic, not in the sense of addressing big themes or concepts, but just the epitome of standard superhero comic storytelling, punched up with some shock twists.

**edhopper** · 08-01-2012, 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by Captain Midnight

Which Elseworlds story from DC & which Marvel What if story do you consider a classic?

Is The Dark Knight Returns considered Elseworlds? Because it is no doubt a classic. I know that Miller has grown out of favor and is a bit of a wanker these days. But TDKR is one of the great modern comics. It is hard to understate how big it was, eclipsing Watchmen and about everything else at the time.

**FanboyStranger** · 08-01-2012, 01:29 PM

The Golden Age is the best Elseworld, hands down.

Batman: Year 100

Son of Superman

Batman/Houdini: The Devil's Workshop

Batman: Manbat

Secret Society of Superheroes

**Polar Bear** · 08-01-2012, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by edhopper

I don't know about classic, but my favorite is the FF Annual from 1998 by Karl Kessel and Stuart Immonen. It was a story as if the FF were the same from FF #1, aged into their 70s. No Marvel Time, just the real progression of time. Reed and Ben had still fought in WWII, they were still the first Americans in space, etc...Having started to read comics in the silver Age, it really resonated with me. All the changes to the time line were taken away and the "real" FF and other heroes were shown. I felt like this was my FF and the current group was an alternative. Sadly the events of the last decade has only made this feeling a lot stronger, I no longer think of most of Marvel as "my super heroes."

I absolutely love that annual! I feel the same way. (I wonder if that made it onto our list of 100 great comics earlier this year? It should have.)

Let's see:

Elseworlds: Superman: Secret Identity by Buseik and Immonen. I'm not sure if this was officially titled an Elseworlds, but it fits. It was perfect, down to the last line of dialog, the last line of artwork. I re-read this every year or two, and I'm always rewarded.

What If?... Korvac had destroyed the universe? I read this as a kid (before I'd actually read the Korvac saga, by the way). Horrifying. Comics don't often scare me, but this one did.

An Imaginary Story: "The Amazing Story of Superman-Red and Superman-Blue" (Superman 162). This wasn't one of your official categories, but Elseworlds kind of came from this idea. Anyway, it's a nice, short utopia story from the Silver Age by Dorfman and Swan. A charming classic.

**Bad Wolf** · 08-01-2012, 03:05 PM

My favorite Elseworlds were JLA: The Nail and Superboy's Legion.

As for What If...? I guess I'd go with "What if Phoenix had not died?" (Vol. 1, #27)

**Ziza9** · 08-01-2012, 06:37 PM

Classic What If?: What If? #27 (first series) Phoenix Had Not Died. A story which proves to be even more tragic for the X-men and the world. Nay, the Universe. Great read. The scene where Jean disintegrates Kitty and calls her less than nothing still kicks me in the balls.

Favorite Elseworlds issue: Flash Annual #9/1996, Legends of the Dead Earth. Just a really cool story about the legacy of the Flash.

**Roquefort Raider** · 08-02-2012, 04:28 AM

What if...? vol. 1 had so many excellent issues, it's hard to pick the very best. But for me they would include...

#3, "What if the Avengers had never been?", (Shooter-Kane-Janson) in which Tony Stark does the logical thing and gives armors to all the Avengers, with unexpected (and tragic) results.

#13, "What if Conan walked the Earth today"? (Thomas-Buscema-Chan), a spin-off of SSoC #7, in which Conan had almost been thrown in a magic well that acted as atime-gate. Here he does fall in, ending up in modern New York. Nice touches: he doesn't speak English, and people make references to his looking like a Frazetta painting.

#16, "What if Shang-Chi fought on the side of Fu Manchu", in which Chi does not encounter Nayland Smith after killing Dr. Petrie. But of course, he remains the noble soul that he is, so...

#18, "What if Dr. Strange were a disciple of Dormammu"? Great art by Tom Sutton, great story playing a variation on Doc's first appearance.

#22, "What if Dr. Doom had become a hero?" In a pivotal moment, after telling Reed Richards to get out of his room, Doom calls him back and asks "you say you saw a few errors in my calculations?"... and so Doom doesn't get disfigured, doesn't hate Richards, doesn't waste his time on trying to show his superiority. He frees Latveria from tyranny and becomes a faire ruler... but the great thing is that he's still the von Doom we know, still enamoured of the sound of his own name. His destiny won't be pleasant.

#34, all humor issue. It's tremendously silly, but hilarious too. "What if Tony Stark had an eating disorder instead of a drinking problem?" "What if every member of the Avengers had remained an Avenger?" "What if Black Widow married Spider-man?" (She ate him, in case you wonder).

#39, "What if Conan met Thor"? -a real epic story by Alan Zelenetz and Ron Wilson, suprisingly powerful considering it was just a gimmick to get these two to meet. But the ending is just magnificent.

And so many other...

Elseworlds: Gotham by gaslight was brilliant, and I quite liked Holy Terror.

**dan bailey** · 08-02-2012, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by Jezebel Bond

From Elseworlds, "Letitia Lerner, Superman's Babysitter," which got the book shredded because of Superbaby's antics which included biting through an electric wire and being in a microwave. I thought the shredding bit was extreme...everyone knows baby Kal-El is practically indestructible...

I see this one showed up within the last year or so as a DC Presents. I presume it's a page-for-page reprint (I'm still waiting for copies to show up agreeably below cover price), so the lack of a subsequent outbreak of infant deaths in microwaves is baffling ... or maybe they've become so routine that the media don't bother reporting them anymore, following the dog-bites-man model.

More likely, I suppose, this was yet another shining example of how the hand-wringing Paul Levitz as a publisher was a pretty good Legion writer, one who unfortunately already looked like a scared rabbit & every now & then decided it would be a good idea to act like one, too.

**Rob Allen** · 08-02-2012, 05:25 PM

DC hasn't decided to publish it (yet) but I really enjoyed Lash House by our own Cei-U!

**Slam_Bradley** · 08-02-2012, 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Rob Allen

DC hasn't decided to publish it (yet) but I really enjoyed Lash House by our own Cei-U!

As did I. Though my copy disappeared in a computer meltdown.

**Chris CCL** · 08-02-2012, 06:03 PM

Originally Posted by Captain Midnight

Which Elseworlds story from DC & which Marvel What if story do you consider a classic?

I like Gotham By Gaslight. I haven't read it in a very long while. I've never read its sequel Master Of The Future. DC did collect both into one volume in 2006.
Chris