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  1. #31
    Elder Member BrotherUnitNo_4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by djsweet View Post
    This is pretty telling. Terror Inc. was pretty successful! It was dark, funny, mixed horror and fantasy with crime/action. It was successful enough for a second mini-series. What happened? Patrick Zircher was taken off the title and the artist on the second mini DIDN'T fit the book and was roughly inked by cartoonish Scott Hanna. The series/character TANKED. Why, Marvel could have developed Terror into another franchise? Around the same time Marvel was publishing it's Noir line of mini's. Any of these artists would have worked on Terror Inc, with their dark lines and style, but Marvel used them to ride a cheap trend and sell some books on the short term.
    I think part of the problem is that Marvel still puts too much stock in floppies. DC's willing to take a hit on its Vertigo books because they could push the collections in bookstores. Marvel AFAIK was never willing to go that far to keep these supernatural MAX books going.

    Additional supernatural books they've tried in the 616 include that aforementioned Doctor Voodoo, MI-13 (basically what JLD is for DC), three Doctor Strange minis, Spellbinders, Ghost Rider who had a very long run between Way and Aaron, Witches and most recently Legion of Monsters.

    I'm not sure if all of those just performed poorly or they just weren't that good, but between those books and the MAX books they put out quite a lot of stuff in that genre prior to 2010, when they really started to focus less on the broader MU and more on the big characters.

    EDIT: I forgot about Nick Fury's Howling Commandos, which was surprisingly released as an ongoing, and again Marvel Zombies, which lasted longer than it ever had any right to.
    Last edited by BrotherUnitNo_4; 07-31-2012 at 05:19 AM.
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  2. #32
    Kiss My Axe! aNamored's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrotherUnitNo_4 View Post
    Additional supernatural books they've tried in the 616 include that aforementioned Doctor Voodoo, MI-13 (basically what JLD is for DC), three Doctor Strange minis, Spellbinders, Ghost Rider who had a very long run between Way and Aaron, Witches and most recently Legion of Monsters.

    EDIT: I forgot about Nick Fury's Howling Commandos, which was surprisingly released as an ongoing, and again Marvel Zombies, which lasted longer than it ever had any right to.
    Re: Marvel Zombies, at last someone else who thinks like I do. Not a fan. It is unfortunate that had the most success as far as Marvel's recent supernatural series. I would also add that Werewolf by Night MAX mini series which I really liked save for the ending: It was a little too hokey and franky the thought of Jack Russell in a vegetable state left me bummed.
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  3. #33
    Elder Member Vic Vega's Avatar
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    At this point Marvel isn't ready to invest the resources to overpromote/hype/beat to death a 4-5 book horror line.

    And probably the only way a horror book will work now is if it is part of a larger horror line.

    Retailers and customers have been trained to think in those terms, so fans won't see the point of a Tomb Of Dracula book without there being a Blade book, a Lilith book and a Nightstakers book out there as well.

  4. #34
    Elder Member BrotherUnitNo_4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coldwarmyth View Post
    Re: Marvel Zombies, at last someone else who thinks like I do. Not a fan. It is unfortunate that had the most success as far as Marvel's recent supernatural series. I would also add that Werewolf by Night MAX mini series which I really liked save for the ending: It was a little too hokey and franky the thought of Jack Russell in a vegetable state left me bummed.
    It most definitely is unfortunate.

    To the OP, Marvel doesn't hate those types of books. They took a lot of shots at horror/supernatural/fantasy over 2000-2010, and with that many attempts I would not find it easy to call it half-hearted. They were never going to get the marketing support that Swamp Thing or Animal Man got with the 52 relaunch. I'd actually say they took more chances on that than they did with Marvel cosmic. Part of that is possibly because overall Marvel prefers that their stories be heavily connected to Earth. It's easier for crossovers and cameos that way.
    Currently reading She-Hulk, Deadpool, Swamp Thing, Ms. Marvel

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  5. #35
    Elder Member BrotherUnitNo_4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    At this point Marvel isn't ready to invest the resources to overpromote/hype/beat to death a 4-5 book horror line.

    And probably the only way a horror book will work now is if it is part of a larger horror line.

    Retailers and customers have been trained to think in those terms, so fans won't see the point of a Tomb Of Dracula book without there being a Blade book, a Lilith book and a Nightstakers book out there as well.
    You're probably right on that.
    Currently reading She-Hulk, Deadpool, Swamp Thing, Ms. Marvel

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  6. #36
    Gamebreaker Wellman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vic Vega View Post
    At this point Marvel isn't ready to invest the resources to overpromote/hype/beat to death a 4-5 book horror line.

    And probably the only way a horror book will work now is if it is part of a larger horror line.

    Retailers and customers have been trained to think in those terms, so fans won't see the point of a Tomb Of Dracula book without there being a Blade book, a Lilith book and a Nightstakers book out there as well.
    I could see a 2-3 book horror line working just fine, you just need a popular talent attached to at least one plus a up and coming creator on one of the others. One could be a Werewolf by Night book and the other could easily be a Tomb of Dracula book (featuring the Forgiven or Blade or Elsa Bloodstone) or heck even some other monster/horror character like Man-Thing. These days, names sale as much as the product and if promoted with other books and not just one or two online articles, you can have a good base to build a solid audience.

  7. #37
    Elder Member BrotherUnitNo_4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wellman View Post
    I could see a 2-3 book horror line working just fine, you just need a popular talent attached to at least one plus a up and coming creator on one of the others. One could be a Werewolf by Night book and the other could easily be a Tomb of Dracula book (featuring the Forgiven or Blade or Elsa Bloodstone) or heck even some other monster/horror character like Man-Thing. These days, names sale as much as the product and if promoted with other books and not just one or two online articles, you can have a good base to build a solid audience.
    There's definitely a shortage of Elsa.
    Currently reading She-Hulk, Deadpool, Swamp Thing, Ms. Marvel

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    Looking forward to All-New Ultimates, Flash Gordon and Doctor Mirage.

  8. #38
    Kiss My Axe! aNamored's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wellman View Post
    I could see a 2-3 book horror line working just fine, you just need a popular talent attached to at least one plus a up and coming creator on one of the others. One could be a Werewolf by Night book and the other could easily be a Tomb of Dracula book (featuring the Forgiven or Blade or Elsa Bloodstone) or heck even some other monster/horror character like Man-Thing. These days, names sale as much as the product and if promoted with other books and not just one or two online articles, you can have a good base to build a solid audience.
    Exactly, its not hard to understand. I, would, of course push for Doctor Strange to be somewhere in these books (or getting his own ongoing which *sigh* won't happen in the near future.).

    Lots of folks, myself included never read Animal Man or Swamp Thing before the nu52, while I didn't like Animal Man, if Swamp Thing didn't freak me out as much as it does I'd be reading that in a heartbeat.
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  9. #39
    Just Endless
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    Quote Originally Posted by coldwarmyth View Post
    if Swamp Thing didn't freak me out as much as it does I'd be reading that in a heartbeat.
    Man, I love that. Did you try reading the same author's (snyder's) Batman? Right around issue 6 or 7, it was goddamn terrifying.


    The problem I have with this idea is that I really feel that all these titles you guys are mentioning are just not as strong as the whole Vertigo revival thing DC has going on, they just don't have the same quality of backlog to draw upon. Not that that's always necessary (Swamp Thing has had a pretty rough time, post-Moore), but it helps if people remember the name. I've been reading comics a while, and Marvel's Dracula means nothing to me.

    I kind of see 'horror/weird' as DC's secret strength, while Marvel's secret strength is a far more fantasy driven affair. Titles like Fantastic Four, and Journey Into Mystery have blown my mind a little lately with what could be done with a comic: I had never seen the Inhumans before well enough to identify them, and FF 1-11 (and the rest) was incredible. JiM likewise made a wonderful journey (ahem) out of worlds I didn't recognize.

    For me, THAT is what I worry Marvel may lose in 'Now!' Not a chance for 'horror,' but a chance for true creativity.
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  10. #40
    Kiss My Axe! aNamored's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Endless View Post
    Man, I love that. Did you try reading the same author's (snyder's) Batman? Right around issue 6 or 7, it was goddamn terrifying.


    The problem I have with this idea is that I really feel that all these titles you guys are mentioning are just not as strong as the whole Vertigo revival thing DC has going on, they just don't have the same quality of backlog to draw upon. Not that that's always necessary (Swamp Thing has had a pretty rough time, post-Moore), but it helps if people remember the name. I've been reading comics a while, and Marvel's Dracula means nothing to me.

    I kind of see 'horror/weird' as DC's secret strength, while Marvel's secret strength is a far more fantasy driven affair. Titles like Fantastic Four, and Journey Into Mystery have blown my mind a little lately with what could be done with a comic: I had never seen the Inhumans before well enough to identify them, and FF 1-11 (and the rest) was incredible. JiM likewise made a wonderful journey (ahem) out of worlds I didn't recognize.

    For me, THAT is what I worry Marvel may lose in 'Now!' Not a chance for 'horror,' but a chance for true creativity.
    I don't know about losing creativity (I hope that won't be the case with Marvel NOW!), I think they are seeing where the creative teams go with books they want to write. I just don't want the Marvel U to get any smaller or more consolidated than it already is.

    Batman, I am not a fan. But I heard Synder's run was really good. Scott is a very, very talented horror writer - he's able to get under your skin. What bothers me about Swamp Thing is the whole point of nature rebelling and reclaiming the earth. And the whole irony of Swamp Thing in letting nature take it's course with him as it were.

    I avoid Vertigo left right and sideways for the most part, but I can understand what you mean in the fact that DC has been nuturing darker material for years now, always willing to go there. Marvel went there for a little while with certain titles (Huston's two arcs in Moon Knight are very, very disturbing), but I think part of the problem stems from the titles TPTB want to push. I would love to see less X-Men and Avengers books in order for Marvel to explore other areas of their vast universe. A lot of Marvel's titles skew towards SF which is just fine (F4, Iron Man etc.) or crime, which can be good but I would love to see more genres explored. With the resources Marvel have at their disposal now, it would be wonderful if they took more risks rather than playing it safe.

    We'll see, I guess.
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  11. #41
    Senior Member CromagnonMan's Avatar
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    well something like the Circle of Four limited series could be described as horror-lite

  12. #42
    Star Blazer Will.S's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony ingram View Post
    Of course they did. What else were they going to do? With all due respect to the character (and in this case, all the respect that's due still ain't much), it's Brother Voodoo. They might have tried giving him a doctorate in a desperate and doomed attempt to make him sound less embarrassing, but it's still Brother Voodoo. He is the very definition of lame.
    You can't just write it off as a non-attempt just because you thought it was lame, the creative team was on board for a full ongoing but not enough fans or retailers supported the title.

    I bought it and enjoyed it but it was such a shame to cut it so short. As for the Horror/Fantasy stuff, Marvel will try every once and a while with mini's or their licensed material but typically if you want a fantasy title you'd have to look at other publishers. As said previously I think the closest they got to fantasy lately was Journey into Mystery and I suppose you can add Thor since he's not always straight up superheroics but otherwise Marvel will do other genre stuff in short spurt mini's like Six Guns, Ka-Zar, All Winners Squad and even those books sell pretty bad.

  13. #43
    Elder Member BrotherUnitNo_4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will.S View Post
    You can't just write it off as a non-attempt just because you thought it was lame, the creative team was on board for a full ongoing but not enough fans or retailers supported the title.

    I bought it and enjoyed it but it was such a shame to cut it so short. As for the Horror/Fantasy stuff, Marvel will try every once and a while with mini's or their licensed material but typically if you want a fantasy title you'd have to look at other publishers. As said previously I think the closest they got to fantasy lately was Journey into Mystery and I suppose you can add Thor since he's not always straight up superheroics but otherwise Marvel will do other genre stuff in short spurt mini's like Six Guns, Ka-Zar, All Winners Squad and even those books sell pretty bad.
    Six Guns was so much fun! I couldn't see it as an ongoing but as an annual series of minis? Absolutely.
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  14. #44
    Gamebreaker Wellman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Will.S View Post
    You can't just write it off as a non-attempt just because you thought it was lame, the creative team was on board for a full ongoing but not enough fans or retailers supported the title.

    I bought it and enjoyed it but it was such a shame to cut it so short. As for the Horror/Fantasy stuff, Marvel will try every once and a while with mini's or their licensed material but typically if you want a fantasy title you'd have to look at other publishers. As said previously I think the closest they got to fantasy lately was Journey into Mystery and I suppose you can add Thor since he's not always straight up superheroics but otherwise Marvel will do other genre stuff in short spurt mini's like Six Guns, Ka-Zar, All Winners Squad and even those books sell pretty bad.
    Yeah, but the problem with Marvel within the last 3 or so years is that they will announce these type of different genre mini series online with one or two articles/interviews or a mention in Axel's weekly columns but give no other advertisement for it, even when using two or more pages on already well received stuff like their major event of the year or other superhero stuff that already has it audience like X-Men books. A half a page ad before the release of something they are doing that is off the spandex treadmill before its release doesn't seem that difficult just to let people know it is out there and when, but Marvel doesn't seem to try and then says there is no market, when some of us may or may not even know the book was made.

    Not everyone checks the entire stands or the full weekly release/previews lists, Marvel if they were serious about anything outside of hero comics, could promote them a lot more effectively by actually advertising them in books they know have big sales or draw a similar audience.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Endless View Post

    The problem I have with this idea is that I really feel that all these titles you guys are mentioning are just not as strong as the whole Vertigo revival thing DC has going on, they just don't have the same quality of backlog to draw upon.
    Seriously? The company that published Wolfman and Colan's Tomb of Dracula, Gerber's Man Thing, Vampire Tales, Fear, Son of Satan, Hellstorm, two long running and successful Ghost Rider series' (in the 70s/80s and in the 90s), Werewolf by Night and Satana "doesn't have the same quality of backlog to draw upon"? We have very different definitions of quality, I think...
    Not that that's always necessary (Swamp Thing has had a pretty rough time, post-Moore), but it helps if people remember the name. I've been reading comics a while, and Marvel's Dracula means nothing to me.
    Define "awhile". Because I think Marvel's Dracula means a lot more to a lot of people than you think.

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