Why Does Marvel Hate Fantasy/Horror Comics?

[Rheged]

That AiC quote explains a lot, though, doesn't it? Alonso doesn't even understand what books fit the fantasy / horror genre.

I haven't considered Deadpool, Punisher and Wolverine "edgy" for decades.

[Will.S]

I've come to share the latest from this week's Axel-In-Charge...

Yeah I found Axel's suggestions VERY weak but given Marvel's more reigned in publishing plan I'm not all that surprised either.

There's always other publishers though.

[BrotherUnitNo_4]

Exactly. I'm gonna miss JiM.

Well I can't fault Marvel for not making more fantasy books since JiM is currently one of their lowest if not their lowest selling ongoing. Critical acclaim and crossovers failed to bolster sales on the book. The books is barely scraping 20K. There's no way that's encouraging especially since the book is selling at $2.99.

The last few supernatural/fantasy books they tried did pretty poorly all things considered.

That said, they shouldn't be so ready to give up. I can't think that none of their creators wants to tackle the mystical side or that they can't find one that does, but just like female-led titles, Marvel's clearly lost faith.

[Vic Vega]

Well I can't fault Marvel for not making more fantasy books since JiM is currently one of their lowest if not their lowest selling ongoing. Critical acclaim and crossovers failed to bolster sales on the book. The books is barely scraping 20K. There's no way that's encouraging especially since the book is selling at $2.99.

The last few supernatural/fantasy books they tried did pretty poorly all things considered.

That said, they shouldn't be so ready to give up. I can't think that none of their creators wants to tackle the mystical side or that they can't find one that does, but just like female-led titles, Marvel's clearly lost faith.

Marvel (and DC) needs to expand its readership beyond the superhero fans it now services.

Vampires are a license to print money for everybody but the big 2.

That should tell them something right there.

[BrotherUnitNo_4]

Marvel (and DC) needs to expand its readership beyond the superhero fans it now services.

Vampires are a license to print money for everybody but the big 2.

There's that issue of overhead, where books need to sell more to make money. DC's I Vampire is still sitting low on the charts for a Big Two book, and is likely to see cancellation in the next round of cuts. The problem is a lot of Big Two readers turn their noses up at anything related to vampires immediately dismissing Marvel and DC trying to get rich of the Twilight crowd. I heard a lot of that when I Vampire was first announced or when we found out that Gischler's first X-Men arc was about vampires. The content didn't matter, but people just weren't open to the ideas of vampires or maybe it was superheroes mixing with vampires. I don't know.

I guess that's always one thing to consider when talking about different genres at Marvel/DC. You could have a vampire book at Dark Horse or Image that sells quite a bit less than 20K and still run for a long time. At Marvel/DC that rarely happens as much because it eats away at profit.

[Will.S]

There's that issue of overhead, where books need to sell more to make money. DC's I Vampire is still sitting low on the charts for a Big Two book, and is likely to see cancellation in the next round of cuts. The problem is a lot of Big Two readers turn their noses up at anything related to vampires immediately dismissing Marvel and DC trying to get rich of the Twilight crowd. I heard a lot of that when I Vampire was first announced or when we found out that Gischler's first X-Men arc was about vampires. The content didn't matter, but people just weren't open to the ideas of vampires or maybe it was superheroes mixing with vampires. I don't know.

I guess that's always one thing to consider when talking about different genres at Marvel/DC. You could have a vampire book at Dark Horse or Image that sells quite a bit less than 20K and still run for a long time. At Marvel/DC that rarely happens as much because it eats away at profit.

You bring up an interesting point, what is the criteria for wanting these Marvel Fantasy/Horror books?

Do you guys want these genre books to be done with original non-traditional characters or with established characters but with a new spin? Do you want more of an American Vampire type of book or more along the lines of Blade/Tomb of Dracula? How will said titles bring in a broader appeal to people who usually just buy superhero books? Better yet, how will it entice newer audiences into checking out these particular attempts at fantasy/horror at Marvel?

There have been several examples of Marvel mixing up their characters with the horror characters or genres such as Curse of the Mutants, FrankenCastle, and the Legion of Monsters. Heck, even the Carnage mini-series is technically a horror book. While obviously these examples haven't sustained monthly books I think Marvel has tried to delve into the horror/fantasy genre's when they could but I do agree that Marvel should keep trying to put new spins on established characters when they can and at least try to build an audience.

As far as fantasy/sword and sorcery goes, I can't really think of anything at Marvel that currently fits the bill with their superheroes besides JiM and Thor although previously Skaar was basically Hulk-Conan in space and that didn't really do too well but they did follow up on that with another Skaar mini series in the Savage land followed by his integration into the Dark Avengers. DC's fantasy stuff is basically just Demon Knights and the upcoming Amethyst but who knows how long those will last but I've got to give it to DC for trying.

Let me ask something else though, what characters at Marvel can you see sustaining a run similar to books like Justice League Dark, I, Vampire, Frankenstein, Demon Knights, Swamp Thing, and Animal Man?

[Wellman]

^
Off the top of my head, I can see Blade, Werewolf by Night, Morbius, Elsa Bloodstone, Ghost Rider, Damien Hellstorm, Satana, Wiccan from Young Avengers, Scarlet Witch, the Black Knight, Hannibal King, Nico from the Runaways and Dr. Strange (I'd throw Magik in there as well but I am pretty sure X-books editors are territorial) probably holding down a sustained run if given the proper spin. Heck, even Moon Knight could be made into a character for a decent dark/horror series

The last Ghost Rider seemed to falter because Marvel placed a unlikeable female version as the lead and flirted too much with trying to make it traditional heroics with dashes of darkness. Moon Knight suffered from Bendis' take on psychological disorders and trying to cram three bigger stars into his mythos consistently. But the key to horror is drama and tension, with the right spin of any of these characters, you can achieve that just like Demon Knights dark fantasy or a Animal Man/Swamp Thing type creeping horror feel.

Sadly, Marvel's current leadership seems intent on just putting out superhero stories, we might get the rare gem because it is related to superhero like Journey into Mystery, but if it isn't Avengers or X-Men, I get the feeling Marvel isn't interested and may not be for a while.

[MuhollandDriver]

You bring up an interesting point, what is the criteria for wanting these Marvel Fantasy/Horror books?


Let me ask something else though, what characters at Marvel can you see sustaining a run similar to books like Justice League Dark, I, Vampire, Frankenstein, Demon Knights, Swamp Thing, and Animal Man?

I think that many are seeing the success DC has had with their fantasy/horror titles and are wanting something similar from Marvel.

As for characters that have a chance at sustaining a series...currently only a few.

Dr. Strange
Magik

Hhmmm...there may be more. Possibly Son of Satan. Another issue is so many of Marvel's dark/horror characters have not done much substantial for awhile.

[The_Greatest_Username]

I think a Spider-Woman would book should focus on Horror elements. When she was originally created the focus of her book was to fight villains that are extremely demented along side her mentor Merlin. One of her first villains was even Morgan Le Fey. If they ever try to make a new Spider-Woman book I'd like to see that focus return.

[Tracks]

The thing is when people say marvel's horror books haven't done well, they often automatically assume that it's due to the apathy of the readers. In Blade's case, a lot of his solo books just weren't very good. Howling Commandos had little direction and the Midnight Sons were great stories but they managed to convolute all of their narratives making it very hard to miss even one issue. I believe Marvel gave up to easily on its horror books, this relaunch could be the only time to revitalize the corner...but Marvel doesn't seem to be interested in that.

[Mr MajestiK]

The thing is when people say marvel's horror books haven't done well, they often automatically assume that it's due to the apathy of the readers. In Blade's case, a lot of his solo books just weren't very good. Howling Commandos had little direction and the Midnight Sons were great stories but they managed to convolute all of their narratives making it very hard to miss even one issue. I believe Marvel gave up to easily on its horror books, this relaunch could be the only time to revitalize the corner...but Marvel doesn't seem to be interested in that.

Back in the early 2000s it was very much Marvel's line that much as though they'd like to try such things there were two genres that just didn't sell.

Cosmic and Horror.

That was their line. They hadn't actually, you know, made any real attempt to try in a long time. They just claimed it to be true. They told consumers that bvecause they weren't buying them, there really wasn't much point in Marvel publishing such books.

Which they weren't.

But that was the line. It was because they weren't publishing them that PROVED consumers didn't want those genre of books.

Can you SEE how that didn't make any sense? Talk about a Catch 22 situation.

Then came the brave attempt at trying a Cosmic Event, in the form of Annihilation.

And it EXPLODED!!! Huge success. Many sales. A couple of ongoings launched from it.

And I have always thought that somewhere deep down Marvel as a company resented it. These were not books they wanted to publish. But money talks.

I get the feeling that is WHY we've never had such an attempt to push Horror and Magic stories in the same way. Marvel wants to be a Superheroes only brand, and focus utterly myopically on that.

The stupid thing is that over the past 30 years Marvel has had a lot of big players who went on to have huge success doing Horror and Fantasy titlees on their books. From guys like Mike Mignola and Marc Silvestri, to Robert Kirkman and Charlie Adlard, David Hine, Liam Sharp, the list goes on... But Marvel always, in the end, tried to force them into pure Superhero books.

Because that's what they wanted to publish.

Such an incredible waste. Back when they closed abd sold Marvel UK they had their own ready made version of Vertigo just sitting there. They never used it to its full potential and then sold it off.

Blinkered.

Solid thread and equally solid posts.

Agreed 100%

[Spaced]

^
Off the top of my head, I can see Blade, Werewolf by Night, Morbius, Elsa Bloodstone, Ghost Rider, Damien Hellstorm, Satana, Wiccan from Young Avengers, Scarlet Witch, the Black Knight, Hannibal King, Nico from the Runaways and Dr. Strange (I'd throw Magik in there as well but I am pretty sure X-books editors are territorial) probably holding down a sustained run if given the proper spin. Heck, even Moon Knight could be made into a character for a decent dark/horror series

I'd love to see something with Black Knight along the lines of the old Marvel UK run (from the Hulk Weekly comic) or the original Knights of Pendragon series (which is still probably Marvel's best fantasy/horror book imho).

[The Animal Man]

Animal Man
Swamp Thing
Justice League Dark
I Vampire
Frankenstein Agent Of Shade
Sword Of Sorcery
The Phantom Stranger
Dial H
Demon Knights

that's what you call a dark line but Marvel's excuse for a dark line is a deadpool kills the marvel universe comic and some wolverine issues

[Post Monster]

I think superhero comics in general struggle to get past their scifi origins. Things like magic and fantasy seem to make comic companies nervous.

Also, I think it's rare to find a writer who is good in the fantasy genre due to the genre involving a lot of symbolism, archetypes, spirituality, metaphors, and philosophy. You have to have a firm grasp on what you're trying to say, and you can't wing it in the same way as you can other genres.

[The Animal Man]

guess i gotta stick to DC then huh? if i want some dark titles