Hellboy, Satan, and Free Will

[Greg Anderson]

An interesting read, comparing Hellboy to Milton's Lucifer. What do you guys think?

http://www.theouthousers.com/index.p...free-will.html

[Kees_L]

Yep, interesting read.

Something the piece isn't mentioning in so many words, would be the ingenious way Mignola's Hellboy is presented in not a religious or moralist way; where Milton's Paradise Lost and notably a dumptruckload of writing dealing with Hell or Heaven or such, would appear to be seeking to.

During the Enlightenment and basically all throughout history numerous stories or lore and notably imagery of whatever kind was often if not neededly getting seen or made seen through (very) religious and moralist glasses, whether it would be meant as such or more rather as 'arts' or entertainment.

I guess a lot of that is realised within Hellboy, with having him being this very groundedly blue collar kind of guy most of the time - whether he encounters witches or Goddesses or Demon lords or corpses or Saints, he'll just go like "keep yer pants on, bub..."

Also the duality or dichotomy of "Good versus Evil" and "Holy versus Unholy" is kept on a budget or limit. There wouldn't seem much of it to Hellboy's own mind or in his way of doing things, as he seems more like: "let's check things out before judging" or something like that. Although the narrational purposes or symbolism is kept intact and put to work quite meticulously and lushly.

As how any deities or heavens or magic realms seem to be rendered pretty solemnly or at least NEVER GLORIFIED, if getting rendered at all, like into distantly majestically floating giant candybars.

To me it appears that within Hellboy the strength or tellingness of history and legend and lore is incorporated together with perhaps more modern-seeming entertainment-formats, like comics and pulps and horror.

As such demonstrating how strong and telling and entertaining any of it would be, from ancient Greek or African or European myth, to Kirby or Star Wars, to Shakespeare, Wellman, Lovecraft, or Milton.

Maybe with also demonstrating, for as modern as superhero comics perhaps even newly demonstrating, how 'good vs. evil' or good guys / bad guys, or any such dichotomy or binary if not simplistic win-or-lose perspectives, would NOT be mandatory for entertainment in the slightest.

Plus it just looks sweet, anyone can see that. Sweet and buff, to the teeth!

[Greg Anderson]

Ah, Kees, you pretty much stated what I said on that forum but in a more elegant and educated manner. My post:


I always found it interesting that a character like Hellboy never fell into the "traps" (if you may) of being a story about Christianity. We get that he's from Hell and that his father was a demon who impregnated a nun (that was what happened, right?), but in the end we were always presented with a story of a man fighting to live his life and finding comfort in his skin, against the odds against him.

The connection between him and Lucifer is an interesting one, one that is very obvious but at the same time not one I would have realized first hand.

[Kees_L]

Well hey, thanks for calling me elegant and edu-ma-cated, I shall take that as a compliment, too kind at that.

I make a sport of reading any interviews with or comments by mr Mike Mignola, and he also sounds very groundedly blue collar like, as if making a point of it, just like Hellboy!

And I imagine he's a big reader and a big fan of writing and stories or how that could get done imaginatively and headrushant and captivatingly - so I imagine I've heard him mentioning of often being to mentally record way nifty ways of narration, whether in a book on witchcraft or Greek myth or whatever. Like in case of some of the proposed Arthurian continuity, or some classical hero figure in regards to for instance Hellboy freely giving his eye to the Baba Yaga, or the demonic factions or hierarchy.
Or Nimue and Queen Mabh in relation to Shakespeare, like King Thoth or Hecate as well, or Celtic lore, any of that.

I'm sure Milton and his Satan or Pandemonium could have been proving of interest to mr Mike, as a writer or imaginator, potentially in a similar manner. Possibly Collodi's Pinocchio or Cervantes' Don Quichote as well.


And on your reply (very niftily plus sensibly put forth I'd say ), I guess I see what you mean.
I'd say (being the son of a preacherman, for what that's worth) that it will be intricate to be grasping or considering how any (potentially) religious aspect to any writing or arts or even just entertainment, would be to pan out as.

For instance how prior to what the Western world would regard as *Enlightenment*, entertainment or arts would or might have been existing. Also during Biblical or even pre-Biblical times. Since during any such times, both religious tradition as well as just in-your-face entertainment, may have been existing.
Making even any texts or stories dealing with Hell or Heaven or Gods not necessarily a thing belonging to only religion or either separated from just writing and storytelling tradition.
It would be hard to separate entertainment or religion or in-your-face entertainment (as how folktales or lore could pan out as being), for any time or era, I would think.

[Greg Anderson]

One thing I definitely feel, though, is that a heroes story is always highlighted by what is expected of them and how they use their journey to either go their own path or not. Of course, every hero and their journeys are different from the next, but usually the ones of great sacrifice and the ones of great character study of their inner core and struggles are the ones that appease us. Most recently, from what I've read of Hellboy, he's definitely been getting into the sacrificial bit along with his internal struggles and strife. It always was a bit refreshing that he wasn't seduced by the prospect of power. Right away he said, "Hell no, that isn't for me." He had his convictions and he knew right from wrong. I like that his internal struggles were more so of his anger for having a destiny to be "evil" rather than debating what role he should take.

Man, those HAD to be some powerful pancakes they fed him.

As for all the stories, I love Mignola's love for folklore being showcased all through out Hellboy. It helps make it stand out and the art along with it is always gorgeous. I'm still awaiting if he'll ever pen a story with Hellboy interacting with the Haitian Vodou folklore, but I doubt that'll be.

[Kees_L]

Wow, I sure wouldn't think to say 'never' on the Haitian. If opportunity would be like cringing over a sofa, like some cat feeling forgotten with an appetite, well... Then folks should get on it .

And on all the symbolism and narrative machinations going on, I think it's much to do with trying to convey lots of different stuff at the same time to readers, so most any readers could be to pick up on various things, but not necessarily all that straightforwardly or in merely one sitting.

Almost like preferring to be using language or imagery as used by others already, together with trying to be making things your own as a creator? Stuff needs to be visual and cool, so why not just incorporate your own favorite bits of such? So that at the same time it all may become its own thing uniquely.

I guess it works a treat to simply have Hellboy see and encounter all kinds of symbolism and machinations, more rather than just brand him as being 'good' or 'evil' or 'the winner' from the getgo.

Also because much of folklore/'fairy-tales' both as legend and myth specifically would have been made to be dealing with such, with painting out how evil would work or how hard life itself or keeping good might prove to being. Folklore isn't necessarily just baby eating nonsense with Gods having a mouse or bull for a head - although then again it is - just in good clean fun. As such it could totally be seen as a lot like 'popular entertainment' in its own right. Although a big thing was historically, that important or prestigeous stuff was for real books or churches, whereas folklore or myth was more rather suited for spoken-word only. Which wasn't a biggie, since most any real people couldn't read anyways!

[thwhtGuardian]

One thing that initially struck me was this line, "I’m not sure if Mignola is aware of it, and I’m sure in some way he is, but when Hellboy breaks his horns and rejects his destiny, he is ultimately doing what Lucifer does in Paradise Lost."

I think Mike was very aware of the implications of that action and the comparison that would be drawn between Lucifer and Hellboy by his readers. It's just to artfully crafted to be a happy accident. Mike's work is always purposeful, which is part of why I love him as an artist and a writer; everything is so tight with him, nothing feels underused or wasted.

[Kees_L]

when Hellboy breaks his horns and rejects his destiny

Yeah, I could believe there'd be the awareness of Milton - as being existing hence interpretable imagery, for readers to potentially being or becoming aware of.

The imagery or language of any other authors or poets or whatnot can be used and re-used into becoming storytelling tools, giving or affecting meanings and interpretation. Like how notions or words would do kind of, they guide or color meaning. Or humor: it isn't for nothing how people think to laugh or find something humorous when they do.

But Mignola's Hellboy seems to pivot 'round rendering stuff to essentials for the most part:
Hellboy impulsively grabbing his own horns and chucking them aside doesn't seem like a hero looking to be doing the most astute or most prestigeous, the most loyal or most heroic thing to me, in the face of demons or either humans or whatever faction to be belonging to.

To me it seems far more like some kid's birthday party, right after waking up a bit too soon, or getting overwhelmed, as the loving parents and family all stick their faces in with a huge cake plus a ton of presents plus granddad getting the whole thing on video, while Mommy delicately plants a merry birthday hat on top of the kid's head, like a flag, with all the faces like one giant screaming ball of eager anticipation and overexcitedness.
And what does the kid do, but grab and chuck aside the dinky hat, likely with anticipating to be setting everybody in their place like a good couple of feet back. Like settling everybody just the hell down - or people are gonna get a whole other kind of party all of their own.
Like that song, *I would cry too if it happened to me...*

Eventhough some people would maybe go like: huh? Cry at a party? Deny your destiny? One's purpose? Which is just it: a choice is only a choice when it could go at least two ways.
And so often a hero or winner is made to just do what is expected, like meant to be - but that needn't be the point to heroism, to 'winning' even.

Which is why specifically the impulsiveness or the essentialness of things strike me so in Hellboy, with a choice really being a choice, a destiny or purpose really proving one, due to be actually hanging in the balance.