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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by OJSlaughter View Post
    That a massive problem though. A superhero has to be identifiable with the readers, Cyclops is no longer identifiable and, increasingly so, neither are the X-Men.
    That was always my biggest problem with Cyclops. Forget his terrible relationship history, his questionable actions, or just his general douchebaggery. When I see Cyclops in a comic, I just can't work up any sort of emotional reaction to him whatsoever. I don't hate him the same way I could hate a particularly vile villain, I just hate him because he sucks the life out of any story he appears in, which is just about every single X-Men comic ever. Given the diverse tapestry of characters in the franchise, why does this guy even matter?

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregyo View Post
    That's ridiculous. Cyclops is the BIGGEST reason that mutants are still alive, I believe en editor even said that on this site. You can argue that mutants have died under Cyclops's watch, but I would argue that more, maybe all, would have died under anyone else's.
    That's all nice and good, but you're also going to have to explain X-Factor who are just hanging out and chilling at a NY morgue all by their lonsome.

  3. #63
    Senior Member Goldgeller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregyo View Post
    That's ridiculous. Cyclops is the BIGGEST reason that mutants are still alive, I believe en editor even said that on this site. You can argue that mutants have died under Cyclops's watch, but I would argue that more, maybe all, would have died under anyone else's.
    I don't think its ridiculous. It may not be the strongest argument but it's reasonable. Sounds like you are having it both ways. It seems you are giving Cyclops a great amount of credit for keeping mutants alive but papering over the deaths, and maybe I'm doing the opposite.

    Can we say that both mutants living and mutants dying are results of Cyclops leadership? Given that the mutant population has an upper-bound set by House of M and a few others, and can only decrease, how is what I'm not saying-- in the part you bolded-- not true? Scott has only become more intense of a leader as this thing has gone on. Mutants have become more isolated. Has he ever said, hey, maybe it's time for a major change in plans? I guess you could see the move to San Francisco as an attempt, but that just ended with Cyclops becoming even more militarized.

    I admitted that his strategy was good for a while, and I'm saying, maybe it was time for a change in plans. I'm not even saying Cyclops is all bad.

    More maybe all the mutants would've died under anyone else's watch? I don't know how we'd even adjudicate the argument. So I'm caught flat-footed here. If an editor said that, I guess I'd need to know if they were talking just as a fan or if they are revealing some sort of unstated fact about the MU.
    Last edited by Goldgeller; 07-28-2012 at 08:02 PM. Reason: clarity

  4. #64
    Senior Member Goldgeller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PwrdOff View Post
    That was always my biggest problem with Cyclops. Forget his terrible relationship history, his questionable actions, or just his general douchebaggery. When I see Cyclops in a comic, I just can't work up any sort of emotional reaction to him whatsoever. I don't hate him the same way I could hate a particularly vile villain, I just hate him because he sucks the life out of any story he appears in, which is just about every single X-Men comic ever. Given the diverse tapestry of characters in the franchise, why does this guy even matter?
    To a big extent, I agree. Grant Morrison made him cool for a while. I enjoy him with Emma. He was great in Astonishing X-men, especially near the end of Torn and Unstoppable. Cyclops shooting "people" with that smile was great! He was so awesome! It really was maybe his finest hour.

    I criticized aspects of Cyclops' militancy earlier, and a poster rightfully pointed out that some of it was too harsh-- but I appreciate that aspect about Cyclops. I mean, he is different than Captain America, and he has different goals and responsibilities. I just think in a lot of ways they've written themselves into a corner with the dude. I hate to say "kill Cyclops." But someone posted the AvX 11 cover... I have say, if someone must die, Cyclops rather than Emma should die, for a variety of reasons. Cyclops' death (for a little while) would be the best thing for the character. If Logan, Storm and Emma all more or less saying they want to do something else with their lives than what Cyclops has planned doesn't get to him, maybe him sitting out a year of issues will.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldgeller View Post
    Lol. But he needs to sacrifice himself, not Emma! Poster Infernohara really nailed it with their comments earlier. As much as I like Cyclops, he's pretty much running some moral version of mary sue-ism. Emma's been stripped of her character, but so has Cyclops in a lot of ways. The hard edge that he took into the event-- that began in Messiah Complex and cumulated in AvX just disappeared. He's so completely sanitized in the event that it really isn't possible to enjoy him. That he gets to play the foil to Emma Frost is what is making it worse for me.

    Yes, Exactly, back in issue 7 when it became clear that everyone other than Cyclops was starting to lose it, I said it was a huge cop-out and all the Cyclops fanboys got mad at me. But the point I was trying to make was that Cyclops is the leader of the X-men, he is the one who took them up to this point, and if someone has to suffer negative consequences it should be him. Emma is not the leader of the X-men, if she ultimately pays for what happens in the end and not Scott, that's a cop-out.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by airdreams View Post
    Lol, how Cyclops-centered it is. Sadly Marvel loves this way.
    Emma fans loved the Cyclops centricity back when it was all about how Jean Grey was a horrible girlfriend that held him back.


    I don't want Emma to die, but I do think her fans deserve to be sitting where the Jean fans are, so if they do kill Emma, I won't be too upset.


    Let's see the Emma fans sit through ten years of being disgraced and having every character develop diamond form powers.
    Last edited by Phoenix Egg; 07-28-2012 at 05:35 PM.
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  7. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDtown View Post
    Yes, Exactly, back in issue 7 when it became clear that everyone other than Cyclops was starting to lose it, I said it was a huge cop-out and all the Cyclops fanboys got mad at me. But the point I was trying to make was that Cyclops is the leader of the X-men, he is the one who took them up to this point, and if someone has to suffer negative consequences it should be him. Emma is not the leader of the X-men, if she ultimately pays for what happens in the end and not Scott, that's a cop-out.
    I will bet good money that Cyclop's and Colossus will be the 2 to suffer the most out of the 5. The other 3 have Magneto immunity, people already make remarks about their dubious pasts this will just be lumped together with that and there will be no difference to how anyone will react to them.

  8. #68
    Senior Member Goldgeller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigDtown View Post
    Yes, Exactly, back in issue 7 when it became clear that everyone other than Cyclops was starting to lose it, I said it was a huge cop-out and all the Cyclops fanboys got mad at me. But the point I was trying to make was that Cyclops is the leader of the X-men, he is the one who took them up to this point, and if someone has to suffer negative consequences it should be him. Emma is not the leader of the X-men, if she ultimately pays for what happens in the end and not Scott, that's a cop-out.
    Prescience! I think I would've just like to see the scene where Cyclops says "hey guys, just remember the Phoenix thing is all crazy and stuff and may make you do crazy things. I went and talked to an image of my dead ex-wife who was driven crazy the same power, so I just want you to know I'm here if anyone needs to talk." Now if they have a scene like this, it's probably too late-- how much Phoenix is so much Phoenix that these characters aren't really all there anymore? I'd argue 1/5, but is 1/4 the limit? 1/2 the phoenix? It's probably too late for talk at this point in time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Egg View Post
    Emma fans loved the Cyclops centricity back when it was all about how Jean Grey was a horrible girlfriend that held him back.


    I don't want Emma to die, but I do think her fans deserve to be sitting where the Jean fans are, so if they do kill Emma, I won't be too upset.


    Let's see the Emma fans sit through ten years of being disgraced and having every character develop diamond form powers.
    I think Jean was, in some ways, and at some points in time, Cyclops in a rut. I really do believe that was Grant Morrison's own point in New X-men as well. However, I like Emma and Jean more than I like Scott. I didn't want Jean to die. I felt sorry for her fans. I don't like event deaths in comics because some fans get their favorite character taken away.

  9. #69
    Senior Member Goldgeller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DexterSinister View Post
    I will bet good money that Cyclop's and Colossus will be the 2 to suffer the most out of the 5. The other 3 have Magneto immunity, people already make remarks about their dubious pasts this will just be lumped together with that and there will be no difference to how anyone will react to them.
    That's actually the thing that gets me the most with Emma. There are enough fans that dislike her so much that every villainous thing she does-- Phoenix or no-- will be seen as "aha! Once a villain always a villain!" It will make Emma fans look silly, "this whole time you Emma fans couldn't see that she was a villain since the Byrne days, we knew she was evil because of the Hellions!"
    For her to go out like that without another shot a redemption would be even worse! And no, she isn't redeemed by a "kill me please" sequence. I didn't like that with the Sentry and Siege. That isn't a redemption or even an amelioration. It left a bad taste in my mouth. I actually thought he was a bit too crazy anyways though, and I didn't like that he listened to Osborne instead of his friends. I hope Bendis doesn't pull that with Emma... or with any character, but Emma's rep on the boards couldn't survive it. Cyclops' and Colossus could I think. I'd defend them!

  10. #70
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    we don't know who is going to die or who isn't, the fight cyclops vs emma could be just a couple of punches for all we know, and it was stated in one of the interviews that the character who dies, dies around issue 9 or 10 (don't remember well and its to late to look for it) so I doubt its emma. If emma fans are going to get mad if she dies the same goes for cyclops fans if he is blamed for this hole fiasco, until now the ones responsibles for everything has been the avengers and thats how I see it and many others too. However a lot of posters are just saying "kill the character because I don't like it", if you want a fall from grace for cyclops it should be done right and not in a cheap event like this. Blaming cyclops at the end would feel like we need to blame someone for the avengers mystakes so we blame cyclops because he is the lider, lame, and I just hope that they don't take that route, like the title of this thread says "So...I'm still waiting for Cyclops to do something evil"

  11. #71
    Elder Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    Haha, after everything Matt Fraction has done to Emma do you guys really think she's going to die? Bendis was in on that too. Emma' not dying. Don't fall into that trap. Every Emma story since she's become "good" has been a is she evil is she good story. And we've seen time and time again that she's good.

    Now if you're an Xavier fan then you should be worried.
    Last edited by ExodusCloak; 07-29-2012 at 12:36 AM.

  12. #72
    Senior Member Meehl's Avatar
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    I'm gonna take off my tin foil hat for a few moments to see if I start seeing Cyclops conspiracies, too.
    VIVA KUSASAN!!! Morrison On Magneto: I made him into a stupid old drug-addicted idiot. CC had done a lot of good work over the years to redeem the character. And I went in and sh*t on all of it.

  13. #73

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    I really don't think he will. What is the Phoenix known for? It amplifies a person's base nature. Cyclops whole thing has always been to hold the line, not to stray to far either way, that's what his supporters are for. It's kinda what Gordon said about having friends that will be there to shove their hands in the filth so that you can keep yours clean. Cyclops hands may be filthy, but it takes someone on top of theri game to dig deep enough to find the source of the filth.

  14. #74
    Elder Member ExodusCloak's Avatar
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    There's still four issues left. All it takes is one instance of the Avengers royally screwing up and everyone will stop with their craziness. There was a reason for Avengers Sanction.

  15. #75
    Veteran Member airdreams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix Egg View Post
    Let's see the Emma fans sit through ten years of being disgraced and having every character develop diamond form powers.
    Actually diamond forms are way, way better than fiery birds.
    In dog days, all we need is Frost.

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