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  1. #46
    Senior Member Goldgeller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NGK2008 View Post
    While I agree it's a little unfair to sacrifice Emma for Scott's mistakes in terms of her character, I think it's an interesting way of really punishing him for his decisions so far.

    Having Scott die is probably a nicer thing to do to him than to have him kill his second great love (after Jean), or watch her die again - this time, because of his agenda. There is something very tragic about all of Scott's recent decisions erasing the years of good he's done and causing him to not just relive, but to actually be responsible for recreating, the worst moment of his life (i.e. Dark Phoenix, girlfriend dying in front of him). So while it's lame to use Emma as a scapegoat when her character arc really doesn't lead up to something like this sensibly, it would be a pretty powerful way of devastating Scott.
    Yes and no. I like Emma too much to see your point, but it is well made. Alsom Cyclops never gets "devastated." For better or worse he has this ability to "keep calm and carry on." He will be ready in time for All New X-Men to lecture them on the future. Emma will die, he'll scream "Emma!" And then he'll move on as soon as All New X-Men starts (a parting knife twist for Emma fans). He'll move the mutants to another island, start up another X-Force and get another girlfriend killed and he'll feel vindicated because that will show him how much of a soldier he is-- because he can keep leaving so much wreckage behind him and keep going! The man hasn't learned his lessons. That's part of my problem with Cyclops.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Black Guardian View Post
    He's already being evil. His whole treatment of Hope, from the beginning, has been evil. He really didn't give a crap about her, and she was just a tool for his own glorification. Forcing the world to subject to his will, even if for good, is evil. Scott now has an out, anyway. It's not really completely him at the wheel.
    agree. hope is just a tool he used to consolidate his domination. he forced her go through hell to be the freaking messiah. and when he achieved his goal,he dumped hope like trash,very simliar to what he had done to the professor a while ago.

  3. #48
    Veteran Member airdreams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NGK2008 View Post
    While I agree it's a little unfair to sacrifice Emma for Scott's mistakes in terms of her character, I think it's an interesting way of really punishing him for his decisions so far.

    Having Scott die is probably a nicer thing to do to him than to have him kill his second great love (after Jean), or watch her die again - this time, because of his agenda. There is something very tragic about all of Scott's recent decisions erasing the years of good he's done and causing him to not just relive, but to actually be responsible for recreating, the worst moment of his life (i.e. Dark Phoenix, girlfriend dying in front of him). So while it's lame to use Emma as a scapegoat when her character arc really doesn't lead up to something like this sensibly, it would be a pretty powerful way of devastating Scott.
    Lol, how Cyclops-centered it is. Sadly Marvel loves this way.
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  4. #49
    Senior Member Goldgeller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by airdreams View Post
    Lol, how Cyclops-centered it is. Sadly Marvel loves this way.
    In the same way that Spider-man got in a great punch on Osborne near the end of Siege, I'm really hoping that Captain America gives Cyclops the shield in AvX. It just has to happen. "Stand down son!" I see Cap saying that while smashing Cyclops into the ground.

    I didn't plan on having to say that, since I like the X-Men and I think the Avengers were reckless in their calculations on how to deal with the Phoenix, and a lot of this can be laid at their feet (and I think the Phoenix would need to be dealt with at some point in time-- just not by barging in on the P5 at Utopia).

  5. #50
    X-Gene Positive cookepuss's Avatar
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    Bloody hands? Check. Trying to choke your lady love to the point of tears? Check. Cyclops sure looks evil here. At least evil enough to be evil. Yes, kiddies. Misogyny is alive and well in the 616. Thank you, Cyclops.


  6. #51
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    Lol so much cyclops hate here. But whatever there are also many people that dislikes emma so if she bites the dust I will be cheering the hole day. I hope marvel has the guts to do it, but saddly I don't think they have.

  7. #52
    Veteran Member airdreams's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keeper444 View Post
    Lol so much cyclops hate here. But whatever there are also many people that dislikes emma so if she bites the dust I will be cheering the hole day. I hope marvel has the guts to do it, but saddly I don't think they have.
    Lol, whatever. But actually I love Scott and will never blame him for those shity things. What makes me angry is that Marvel treats Emma as some sort of scapegoat of him and wanna sacrifice her to benefit him.
    In dog days, all we need is Frost.

  8. #53
    X-Gene Positive cookepuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keeper444 View Post
    Lol so much cyclops hate here.
    I don't know about anybody else, but most of my anti-Cyclops feelings stem from Marvel putting him on the villain track post-Morrison. I totally agree that he was a wimp for a while and they wanted to change that. However, they went from one extreme to the other with him. Since 2004, they've had him threatening the SF mayor, forming a hit squad, chumming around with Magneto, and physically trying to remake the world in his own image. To me, Cyclops has been turned into an A#1 douchebag.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by airdreams View Post
    Lol, whatever. But actually I love Scott and will never blame him for those shity things. What makes me angry is that Marvel treats Emma as some sort of scapegoat of him and wanna sacrifice her to benefit him.
    I don't see her as a spacegoat at all, I still see her in character but the points of view are subjectives, my problem is that no matter what cyclops do is that everithing is evil to some people, if he does nothing is evil, if he does something is evil.

    Quote Originally Posted by cookepuss View Post
    I don't know about anybody else, but most of my anti-Cyclops feelings stem from Marvel putting him on the villain track post-Morrison. I totally agree that he was a wimp for a while and they wanted to change that. However, they went from one extreme to the other with him. Since 2004, they've had him threatening the SF mayor, forming a hit squad, chumming around with Magneto, and physically trying to remake the world in his own image. To me, Cyclops has been turned into an A#1 douchebag.
    I like the new cyclops more, he did what was necesary for the greater good of the x-men, so this is also subjective to the readers.

  10. #55
    Call me Ollie or OJ OJSlaughter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keeper444 View Post
    I like the new cyclops more, he did what was necesary for the greater good of the x-men, so this is also subjective to the readers.
    That a massive problem though. A superhero has to be identifiable with the readers, Cyclops is no longer identifiable and, increasingly so, neither are the X-Men.
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  11. #56
    X-Gene Positive cookepuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by keeper444 View Post
    I like the new cyclops more, he did what was necesary for the greater good of the x-men, so this is also subjective to the readers.
    By that logic, doing anything for the perceived greater good is okay then. It's not. There are lots of things that might be for the greater good that just aren't right to do.

    My problem with Cyclops is that they turned him from the mutant Captain America into something wholly unrecognizable. He's driven. That's for sure. However, you can't really argue that the ends justify the means when people are getting hurt in the process. To Captain America, Cyclops is the mutant Hitler. He'll do just about anything in the name of promoting and protecting his superior race. He'll jail people without trials. He'll kill his opposition. He'll use the media & propaganda win the people over. His whole "remake the world" thing amounts to world domination. I fail to see how Cyclops is the good guy anymore. Cyclops wants to protect mutants. That's okay. At everybody else's expense? Not so okay.

    This is one of the reasons why I'm dying to read Bendis' All New X-Men. I'm pretty sure that the Lee/Kirby era O5 would practically have a fit with what's going on today. Xavier's been pushed to the background. Cyclops' trusted advisor is Magneto. The X-Men have/had their own hit-squad. Most of the team has a criminal record. The present, I agree, would look like Days of Future Past to them. To them, the X-Men of today might as well be the new Brotherhood.
    Last edited by cookepuss; 07-28-2012 at 02:24 PM.

  12. #57
    Senior Member Goldgeller's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cookepuss View Post
    By that logic, doing anything for the perceived greater good is okay then. It's not. There are lots of things that might be for the greater good that just aren't right to do.

    My problem with Cyclops is that they turned him from the mutant Captain America into something wholly unrecognizable. He's driven. That's for sure. However, you can't really argue that the ends justify the means when people are getting hurt in the process. To Captain America, Cyclops is the mutant Hitler. He'll do just about anything in the name of promoting and protecting his superior race. He'll jail people without trials. He'll kill his opposition. He'll use the media & propaganda win the people over. His whole "remake the world" thing amounts to world domination. I fail to see how Cyclops is the good guy anymore. Cyclops wants to protect mutants. That's okay. At everybody else's expense? Not so okay.

    This is one of the reasons why I'm dying to read Bendis' All New X-Men. I'm pretty sure that the Lee/Kirby era O5 would practically have a fit with what's going on today. Xavier's been pushed to the background. Cyclops' trusted advisor is Magneto. The X-Men have/had their own hit-squad. Most of the team has a criminal record. The present, I agree, would look like Days of Future Past to them. To them, the X-Men of today might as well be the new Brotherhood.
    I think that's a little unfair to Cyclops, though the base of your critique is something that I agree with. Lets just stipulate that Cyclops and Cap were once more or less the same idea-- both "boy scouts." Everyone talks about Cyclops being a boy scout. Okay. Cap was able to continue to be Cap because he was an Avenger-- he wasn't hated and feared, he was loved. Around the time of House of M and the 198, whatever chances Cyclops had of running Cap's playbook were dashed. There's good reason to think that Cyclops had to be pro-active in a way Cap didn't. Cyclops had a lot of good reasons to believe that there would be no help coming for him and his mutants that he didn't bring, so things like X-Force and exerting a bit more control over the remaining mutant population make a bit more sense to me.

    I think many of the same responses above can easily be expanded into Cyclops' actions in AvX. I don't agree with it, but in a lot of ways, now that Cyclops has Phoenix power, he has extended that type of... paternalism to all the human race. Along with the paternalism, he has a very militarized mind-set, so he's used to having to react swiftly and violently to threats.

    Now I papered over the big thing which you sorta dealt with-- Cyclops' plans and strategy leave a lot of other people's lives broken in their wake. And I'm not talking about villains' lives. A lot of good X-men and good people get hurt so that Cyclops can "do what is necessary." All the while, "doing what is necessary" just leaves the X-men more isolated and with less mutants. Scott's response? Do more! I said this in a previous post-- every body left lying in the wake of his plans is just one more reason for him to continue on-- it proves that the world is against him or something. It is kinda obnoxious about him. It was good for a while, but now it's not. And it's weird that he doesn't see that, and at this point in time-- AvX-- it looks like he's going to skate away free.

  13. #58
    Veteran Member gregyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OJSlaughter View Post
    That a massive problem though. A superhero has to be identifiable with the readers, Cyclops is no longer identifiable and, increasingly so, neither are the X-Men.
    That's completely subjective. Maybe you can't identify with Cyclops, but I sure as hell can. He's a hell of a lot more relateable than Thor and the Avengers.

  14. #59
    Veteran Member gregyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldgeller View Post
    I think that's a little unfair to Cyclops, though the base of your critique is something that I agree with. Lets just stipulate that Cyclops and Cap were once more or less the same idea-- both "boy scouts." Everyone talks about Cyclops being a boy scout. Okay. Cap was able to continue to be Cap because he was an Avenger-- he wasn't hated and feared, he was loved. Around the time of House of M and the 198, whatever chances Cyclops had of running Cap's playbook were dashed. There's good reason to think that Cyclops had to be pro-active in a way Cap didn't. Cyclops had a lot of good reasons to believe that there would be no help coming for him and his mutants that he didn't bring, so things like X-Force and exerting a bit more control over the remaining mutant population make a bit more sense to me.

    I think many of the same responses above can easily be expanded into Cyclops' actions in AvX. I don't agree with it, but in a lot of ways, now that Cyclops has Phoenix power, he has extended that type of... paternalism to all the human race. Along with the paternalism, he has a very militarized mind-set, so he's used to having to react swiftly and violently to threats.

    Now I papered over the big thing which you sorta dealt with-- Cyclops' plans and strategy leave a lot of other people's lives broken in their wake. And I'm not talking about villains' lives. A lot of good X-men and good people get hurt so that Cyclops can "do what is necessary." All the while, "doing what is necessary" just leaves the X-men more isolated and with less mutants. Scott's response? Do more! I said this in a previous post-- every body left lying in the wake of his plans is just one more reason for him to continue on-- it proves that the world is against him or something. It is kinda obnoxious about him. It was good for a while, but now it's not. And it's weird that he doesn't see that, and at this point in time-- AvX-- it looks like he's going to skate away free.
    That's ridiculous. Cyclops is the BIGGEST reason that mutants are still alive, I believe en editor even said that on this site. You can argue that mutants have died under Cyclops's watch, but I would argue that more, maybe all, would have died under anyone else's.

  15. #60
    Veteran Member gregyo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cookepuss View Post
    By that logic, doing anything for the perceived greater good is okay then. It's not. There are lots of things that might be for the greater good that just aren't right to do.

    My problem with Cyclops is that they turned him from the mutant Captain America into something wholly unrecognizable. He's driven. That's for sure. However, you can't really argue that the ends justify the means when people are getting hurt in the process. To Captain America, Cyclops is the mutant Hitler. He'll do just about anything in the name of promoting and protecting his superior race. He'll jail people without trials. He'll kill his opposition. He'll use the media & propaganda win the people over. His whole "remake the world" thing amounts to world domination. I fail to see how Cyclops is the good guy anymore. Cyclops wants to protect mutants. That's okay. At everybody else's expense? Not so okay.

    This is one of the reasons why I'm dying to read Bendis' All New X-Men. I'm pretty sure that the Lee/Kirby era O5 would practically have a fit with what's going on today. Xavier's been pushed to the background. Cyclops' trusted advisor is Magneto. The X-Men have/had their own hit-squad. Most of the team has a criminal record. The present, I agree, would look like Days of Future Past to them. To them, the X-Men of today might as well be the new Brotherhood.
    Haters gonna hate.

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