Tilting at Windmills - Jul 27, 2012

[DaronK]

How can the original X-Men come from the 60s? Are they in their mid-sixties in current continuity? More like they came from the year 2000. Think about that.

This I think is how they're going to get away with this and not affect the time stream. The characters coming from the past, most likely will be coming from the 60's era, but it will be a different reality that had basically the same history as 616 up until that point. I'm just guessing, but Axel has said they they won't be having any affect on the time stream and this is about the only way I can think that they could make this work.

[cookepuss]

How can the original X-Men come from the 60s? Are they in their mid-sixties in current continuity? More like they came from the year 2000. Think about that.

And lots of it.

Seriously, go back and read a few comics where they retell the origins. Usually, things are updated so that they take place in a more modern period. Only characters like Captain America are tied to specific decades. For most others, Marvel can just keep updating. I hardly think that Iron Man's origin is still being told as having gotten shrapnel in his heart while in Vietnam, or whatever. It's more like Gulf War or something now.

[Drew Melbourne]

What happens when we run out of oil and cheap electricity? Every single digital comic book file will be lost to the ether, and if some survive they would only be readable in small pockets around the world, if electricity is scarce, why waste it on a digital comic book? Physical comic books will remain because they are real.

In such a post-apocalyptic scenario, I don't think I'd be worried about my comic book collection. I will be learning how to fire a crossbow.

[Drew Melbourne]

This I think is how they're going to get away with this and not affect the time stream. The characters coming from the past, most likely will be coming from the 60's era, but it will be a different reality that had basically the same history as 616 up until that point. I'm just guessing, but Axel has said they they won't be having any affect on the time stream and this is about the only way I can think that they could make this work.

The way time travel works in the Marvel Universe, unless you're using some weird cosmic exception power, if you change the past, it creates an alternate timeline. So if you snatched the original X-Men from the middle of X-Men #11, it would not change history, but it would create an alternate timeline (that we would not see) where they vanished.

Marvel has forgotten most of its history though, so I assume we'll get a different explanation.

[cookepuss]

The way time travel works in the Marvel Universe, unless you're using some weird cosmic exception power, if you change the past, it creates an alternate timeline. So if you snatched the original X-Men from the middle of X-Men #11, it would not change history, but it would create an alternate timeline (that we would not see) where they vanished.

Marvel has forgotten most of its history though, so I assume we'll get a different explanation.

Marvel's a big fan of the "multiple worlds" theory of time travel. This has been the case ever since they started mucking with time platforms in Fantastic Four. It enables them to tell fun stories without getting into the issue of paradoxes. In New Mutants' recent "Fear the Future" arc, there's talk about not wanting to corrupt the time stream, but that concern is balanced out by saying that the older Doug was likely from a possible alternate instead of a certain future.

[poneley]

I gotta agree with Mr. Hibbs on basically all or most of his points. My own thoughts on the matter...

- Relaunches are killing books. Nuff said.
- There is no hook. Totally agree. Right now Marvel NOW just seems a "NEXT BIG THING" but with no substance inside it.
- Reshuffling of creative teams is not a hook. Totally agree.
- AvX has been fun but yeah, what about the rest of the MU?

I'm not a fan of "Marvel should do..." style rants but I totally agree with Mr. Hibbs on his ideas...
- An all or nothing pushing like New52 is what would have helped a lot more then a rolling release schedule.
- Get us real hooks based on strong creative teams or a strong premise.

The only thing that is debatable is doing a 100% reboot like the New52 or maybe do a line-wide relaunch that doesn't restart continuity. I can see the pros and cons of both.

[TerenceStewart]

Seriously, go back and read a few comics where they retell the origins. Usually, things are updated so that they take place in a more modern period. Only characters like Captain America are tied to specific decades. For most others, Marvel can just keep updating. I hardly think that Iron Man's origin is still being told as having gotten shrapnel in his heart while in Vietnam, or whatever. It's more like Gulf War or something now.

I haven't got a problem with updating origins - I just don't bother reading them anymore. I've been reading since the early 70s, and I can essentially imagine the characters being ageless. But something like this? It just draws a big ol' bullseye on Marvel's insistence that their continuity is seamless.

[DaronK]

For me personally, my biggest problem with Marvel Now is the same as Marvel for the last 5-10 years, and that's they're business model. All of their sales gimmicks seem entirely financially based (and yes I know companies are meant to make money, and yes I know both if not all comic companies use gimmicks to move more product).

My point is when DC relaunched with the new 52 it was story driven and done so with the intent of making their entire universe more accessible (we can argue the failings of that all day - but the goal was clear). And they did this with all but 4 of the initial series being $2.99, and the 4 that were $3.99 had more content than their $2.99 contemporaries.

On the flip side, Marvel's "initiatives" seem to be about simply squeezing more money out of their fan base. Yes they might be trying to make things more accessible with the relaunch and the new creative teams, but it looks like very title involved will be $3.99, I'm guessing at their normal 20 page count (if this wasn't the case, I'd guess we'd be hearing this from them). Then of course there are all the books that are constantly double shipping, and the constant multi-month, near-line-wide cross overs.

With Marvel Now, if what I've said above comes to pass, which is basically what they've already hinted at, I won't be buying a single one of the new books, even if I am interested in some of them. I'll wait until I can get the hardback on Amazon for $12-$15 and read them like that. And I hate trade waiting, but that's how I currently read X-Force and Spiderman, so why stop NOW...

[supamike]

"I gotta agree with Mr. Hibbs on basically all or most of his points. My own thoughts on the matter...

- Relaunches are killing books. Nuff said.
- There is no hook. Totally agree. Right now Marvel NOW just seems a "NEXT BIG THING" but with no substance inside it.
- Reshuffling of creative teams is not a hook. Totally agree.
- AvX has been fun but yeah, what about the rest of the MU?

I'm not a fan of "Marvel should do..." style rants but I totally agree with Mr. Hibbs on his ideas...
- An all or nothing pushing like New52 is what would have helped a lot more then a rolling release schedule.
- Get us real hooks based on strong creative teams or a strong premise.

The only thing that is debatable is doing a 100% reboot like the New52 or maybe do a line-wide relaunch that doesn't restart continuity. I can see the pros and cons of both."
How is new creative teams not a hook?If a team that i like and have read before is coming to a book that im currently not reading then im definatley interested in that book.
Also how is new creative teams not a hook but you want "real hooks based on creative teams"?

[supamike]

Sorry i didnt keep your points and my points separate. Brain fart.

[Blade X]

Uniqueness is harder for Marvel here for a couple of reasons. First off, editorially they've dismissed any chance at a restart, instead believing that "everything happened" in the Marvel Universe as being a virtue. I think it is less of one than it was 20 years ago, and I think Marvel's continuity has gotten insanely tangled and illogical as it has aged (anything from teenage Tony Stark, to the Cold War-centered origins of most of the characters), but I can totally see why they might think that.

The part of your comment that I put in bold is not quite true. In a recent interview (I think it was on this very site), Alonso said that while MARVEL NOW isn't a reboot, they have not completely out ruled a total reboot. This to me seems like a roundabout BS spin way of saying (and I'm mind reading here) of saying "If sales of MARVEL NOW (or any other upcoming gimmick) either fails to set the sales chart on fire or quickly plummets in sales after the initial high sales of the first issues, we will definitely reboot and relaunch the entire MU from the beginning".

IMO, I'm all for either a selective,partial,or full reboot of the MU. Hell, I would go even further and fire most (not all) of the current editorial staff and creators currently working for Marvel and hire experienced (as well as new) editors and creators who actually "get it" and know what makes the MU (and superhero comics in general) work.

[supamike]

The part of your comment that I put in bold is not quite true. In a recent interview (I think it was on this very site), Alonso said that while MARVEL NOW isn't a reboot, they have not completely out ruled a total reboot. This to me seems like a roundabout BS spin way of saying (and I'm mind reading here) of saying "If sales of MARVEL NOW (or any other upcoming gimmick) either fails to set the sales chart on fire or quickly plummets in sales after the initial high sales of the first issues, we will definitely reboot and relaunch the entire MU from the beginning".

IMO, I'm all for either a selective,partial,or full reboot of the MU. Hell, I would go even further and fire most (not all) of the current editorial staff and creators currently working for Marvel and hire experienced (as well as new) editors and creators who actually "get it" and know what makes the MU (and superhero comics in general) work.

No disrespect to you Blade X but the creative teams Marvel has now are and have been really good. I know thats a subjective statement but look at what they've done.Look at Avengers.Before Bendis came on board this book had been pretty irrelevant since the Busiek/Perez run. I think they guys they got there now "Get it"

[Wolf_Leader]

How is new creative teams not a hook?If a team that i like and have read before is coming to a book that im currently not reading then im definatley interested in that book.
Also how is new creative teams not a hook but you want "real hooks based on creative teams"?

Because it is just shuffling of the deck chairs. Remender is even already doing an Avengers title and an X-Men title. This is probably exciting for people who are already or still buying that stuff but it is really business as usual for Marvel and doesn't help the real goal of bringing in more readers overall. Although, I do think Bendis on this O5 thing might be on the right track. I cannot say I am a fan of his Avengers work over the last couple years but even I am interested in picking that up.

[Wolf_Leader]

No disrespect to you Blade X but the creative teams Marvel has now are and have been really good. I know thats a subjective statement but look at what they've done.Look at Avengers.Before Bendis came on board this book had been pretty irrelevant since the Busiek/Perez run. I think they guys they got there now "Get it"

You know how Bendis got Avengers to become a hit? He rebooted it (and threw in Spider-Man and Wolverine).

[supamike]

Because it is just shuffling of the deck chairs. Remender is even already doing an Avengers title and an X-Men title. This is probably exciting for people who are already or still buying that stuff but it is really business as usual for Marvel and doesn't help the real goal of bringing in more readers overall. Although, I do think Bendis on this O5 thing might be on the right track. I cannot say I am a fan of his Avengers work over the last couple years but even I am interested in picking that up.

Isnt it being exciting good enough? Ppl that are excited about it will tell other ppl that arent reading it and hopefully that will bring in new readers.