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  1. #46
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Master Meglomaniac View Post
    I think the fact the heroes get into fights with each other all the time and most of the villains do nothing to take advantage of it, makes the heroes look stupid and the villains look completely ineffective. If the heroes can just drop what they are doing in order to get into brawls with each other and the villains never seem gain any ground because of this, the villains just look pathetic.
    You can argue that the villains did gain a bit of ground post Civil War. Dark Reign had bad guys calling the shots for a little bit, and that was a direct outcome of Civil War.

  2. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    You can argue that the villains did gain a bit of ground post Civil War. Dark Reign had bad guys calling the shots for a little bit, and that was a direct outcome of Civil War.
    Except Dark Reign only happened because Norman Osborn was lucky and the government and general public in the MU is insanely incompetent. Osborn didn't plan any of the events that led to Dark Reign, it happened more due to luck then cleverness. Also besides Sinister, what villains have taken advantage of the Avengers vs. X-Men battle?

  3. #48
    Veteran Member Juggernaut Punch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Master Meglomaniac View Post
    Except Dark Reign only happened because Norman Osborn was lucky and the government and general public in the MU is insanely incompetent. Osborn didn't plan any of the events that led to Dark Reign, it happened more due to luck then cleverness. Also besides Sinister, what villains have taken advantage of the Avengers vs. X-Men battle?
    He did strategically position himself within the government and made an effort so that he and the Thunderbolts would be seen during the final battle against the Skrulls. He may not have planned the events that lead to Dark Reign but it took hard work on his part to land the position of the new Nick Fury.

    As for AvX an in-universe explanation for why no villains have taken advantage of this is probably because they're too scared. Most X-Villains kinda have what they want now with the mutant dominated world and the rest like Sabretooth and Mystique (presuming they're even around during AvX) are laying low in order to avoid the ire of the P5. I mean what is there to even take advantage of? The P5 rule the world and are actively fighting the Avengers so I don't see what any Avengers foes could take advantage of, their opponents are already being dealt with. The only reason Sinister made a move is because he has plans specifically for the Phoenix Force and the X-Men.

  4. #49
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Off the top of my head, aside from Sinister I think the only villain that might try something in AvX might be Doom. He'd like plot to try and take the P5's power, and would certainly oppose anyone telling whether or not he can have weapons or wage war.

    Aside from him, most villains I think would probably choose to lay low. Despite heroes being pre-occupied fighting each other, I'm not entirely sure the situation has improved for them.

  5. #50
    Cat smells like fish StoneGold's Avatar
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    Minor quibble, but as to the title, I think it's more that the issue is villains have been marginalized, as opposed to diluted. I don't think they can really dilute characters by using them less.
    The Punisher: Iím going to cauterize your rectum, sealing it shut, so when you turn those delicious Pink Pantsô Fruit Pies into waste products the bilirubin in your feces will leach into your bloodstream and youíll die screaming! And Iíll watch while having sex with this grateful prostitute!

    Trussed-Up Hooker: Blueberry are my favorite!

    In other words, what StoneGold said.
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    Check out my travel site, Geekations.com

  6. #51

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    No. I wish they'd stop making them heroes, tho.

  7. #52
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by coveredinbees View Post
    No. I wish they'd stop making them heroes, tho.
    I definately think that can be an issue, because a lot of the time newer villains just don't get as over as some of the classics. So if you turn an old school villain into a good guy, you won't necessarily be able to fill the void.

    How do you replace Juggernaut? Yeah, you can bust out another class 100 power house but Cain is a classic. He's got a descent amount of cred, so when he plows through a group of heroes you buy it.

    I think it would be less of a problem if you occasionally turned a few heroes into villains and made it actually stick. Not that I'm necessarily in favor of doing this in general... but I think occasionally it's needed if you're going to make it a habbit of reforming perfectly good villains.

  8. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Off the top of my head, aside from Sinister I think the only villain that might try something in AvX might be Doom. He'd like plot to try and take the P5's power, and would certainly oppose anyone telling whether or not he can have weapons or wage war.

    Aside from him, most villains I think would probably choose to lay low. Despite heroes being pre-occupied fighting each other, I'm not entirely sure the situation has improved for them.
    What's to stop Diablo from pulling something off in South America? Why can't Mad Thinker pull something off when the heroes are fighting each other? There are many villains besides the ones you mentioned who could do something while the heroes are fighting each other, yet we never see that in these types of events. How are we supposed to buy the villains as threats to the heroes, when they can't even do anything while the heroes are busy fighting each other?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut Punch View Post
    He did strategically position himself within the government and made an effort so that he and the Thunderbolts would be seen during the final battle against the Skrulls. He may not have planned the events that lead to Dark Reign but it took hard work on his
    part to land the position of the new Nick Fury.
    How did Norman manage to position himself in the government in the first place? It seems like the government was run by incompetents in the first place, if they thought letting a psychotic criminal and known murderer be in charge of a black ops team, Norman got into his position because the government is run by insane morons.

    Besides why didn't any villain do anything during civil war directly?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut Punch View Post
    As for AvX an in-universe explanation for why no villains have taken advantage of this is probably because they're too scared. Most X-Villains kinda have what they want now with the mutant dominated world and the rest like Sabretooth and Mystique (presuming they're even around during AvX) are laying low in order to avoid the ire of the P5. I mean what is there to even take advantage of? The P5 rule the world and are actively fighting the Avengers so I don't see what any Avengers foes could take advantage of, their opponents are already being dealt with. The only reason Sinister made a move is because he has plans specifically for the Phoenix Force and the X-Men.

    Red Skull once picked a fight with Dr. Doom, a lot of these villains are pretty brazen. Besides the P5 have their hands fill with other things, would they notice Diablo doing something in South America or Mad thinker pulling off a very subtle scheme? If Mr. Sinister thinks he has a chance against the P5, I don't see why other villains wouldn't try less dangerous schemes, that the P5 wouldn't be likely to notice.
    Last edited by The Master Meglomaniac; 07-29-2012 at 08:18 PM.

  9. #54
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Master Meglomaniac View Post
    What's to stop Diablo from pulling something off in South America? Why can't Mad Thinker pull something off when the heroes are fighting each other? There are many villains besides the ones you mentioned who could do something while the heroes are fighting each other, yet we never see that in these types of events. How are we supposed to buy the villains as threats to the heroes, when they can't even do anything while the heroes are busy fighting each other?
    The problem is that they villains aren't necessarily in a better position than they are normally. They're potentially dealing with the Phoenix 5, who are cosmic level telepahts and teleporters. And that's likely to scare most villains off. They're essentially owning the Avengers and even Wakanda, an entire country.

    So AvX is really only an opportunity for a high end villain like Doom, who can turn a situation like this to his advantage. For most villains, this is out of their league. And because of that, they're probably better off keeping their heads down low.

    I think they might have an opportunity when this is over... once the P5 is beat odds are the Avengers and X-Men will be in bad shape. And that creates a potential window. But right now the P5 are frankly a just a large a threat to any villain as they are to the Avengers. It's not necessarily something most would want a piece off. Someone like Doom is a potential exception.

  10. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    The problem is that they villains aren't necessarily in a better position than they are normally. They're potentially dealing with the Phoenix 5, who are cosmic level telepahts and teleporters. And that's likely to scare most villains off. They're essentially owning the Avengers and even Wakanda, an entire country.

    So AvX is really only an opportunity for a high end villain like Doom, who can turn a situation like this to his advantage. For most villains, this is out of their league. And because of that, they're probably better off keeping their heads down low.

    I think they might have an opportunity when this is over... once the P5 is beat odds are the Avengers and X-Men will be in bad shape. And that creates a potential window. But right now the P5 are frankly a just a large a threat to any villain as they are to the Avengers. It's not necessarily something most would want a piece off. Someone like Doom is a potential exception.
    Except the P5 are busy dealing with the Avengers and Sinister at the same time, besides is dealing with Diablo in South America at the top of the P5's priority list? Even they can't be everywhere at once and the hero community is still divided over this crisis.

    Also most villains didn't seem to do jack during or after Civil War, would the writers actually deal with the fallout this time of heroes foolishly. During Civil war, villains had an advantage over heroes, but they didn't press it and that made them look weak and ineffective, frankly Marvel has show the villains doing something this time, otherwise it looks like the heroes can just ignore fighting crime and villains and get into fights with each other whenever they want and the world will be no worse for where. How is there supposed to be any drama in hero vs. villain conflicts, when the villains cannot take advantage of obvious openings?

    Onslaught was a bad story, but they at least dealt with the aftermath and how super villains did take advantage of the situation, something lacking from both Civil War and AvX. Most of the villains seem to have become ineffective wimps lately lately, most seem to have lost their nerve, making them far less threatening then in the past.
    Last edited by The Master Meglomaniac; 07-29-2012 at 08:37 PM.

  11. #56
    Elder Member celticguy's Avatar
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    Didn't Norman use his political/biz connections to get in with the Tbolts and just take advantage of how event unfolded from that point?

    There was that one point when Cap worked with the Kingpin to set up a bunch of bad guys but that was as big as it got with villians. Love him or hate him Hood and his group seemed to be doing ok during CW.

    In some way the pool of villans is rich because they have been on the shelf.Instead of a oh him again reaction people might enjoy seeing someone besides Doom and Loki as the bad guy.
    Last edited by celticguy; 07-29-2012 at 08:46 PM.

  12. #57
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Master Meglomaniac View Post
    Except the P5 are busy dealing with the Avengers and Sinister at the same time, besides is dealing with Diablo in South America at the top of the P5's priority list? Even they can't be everywhere at once and the hero community is still divided over this crisis.

    Also most villains didn't seem to do jack during or after Civil War, would the writers actually deal with the fallout this time of heroes foolishly. During Civil war, villains had an advantage over heroes, but they didn't press it and that made them look weak and ineffective, frankly Marvel has show the villains doing something this time, otherwise it looks like the heroes can just ignore fighting crime and villains and get into fights with each other whenever they want and the world will be no worse for where. How is there supposed to be any drama in hero vs. villain conflicts, when the villains cannot take advantage of obvious openings?

    Onslaught was a bad story, but they at least dealt with the aftermath and how super villains did take advantage of the situation, something lacking from both Civil War and AvX. Most of the villains seem to have become ineffective wimps lately lately, most seem to have lost their nerve, making them far less threatening then in the past.
    Dealing with Diablo probably isn't at the top of the P5's priority list... because frankly it's Diablo. Still, if he were to do something of substance it's possibly they might put him ahead of "fixing" the San Andreas fault (which frankly is a horrible idea). That's kind of my point... you don't necessarily want to be on their radar... hence laying low.

    As far as villains taking advantage... again, I think that was sort of the point of Dark Reign. With heroes splintered from Civil War and removed from power after Secret Invasion, the villains ended up getting the upperhand for awhile in Dark Reign. An opening was created, and they kind of filled in that power vacuum for a bit.

  13. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by celticguy View Post
    Didn't Norman use his political/biz connections to get in with the Tbolts and just take advantage of how event unfolded from that point?

    In some way the pool of villans is rich because they have been on the shelf.Instead of a oh him again reaction people might enjoy seeing someone besides Doom and Loki as the bad guy.
    Most connections don't work once you have committed very public crimes. Bernie Madoff will never get a position with the government after the stuff he pulled and Norman committed way worse, on TV. So that explanation doesn't work.

    Besides can you think of any villains who did anything directly during Civil war when the heroes were fighting each other?

    I would love to see some unused villains get the spot light, but if the writers did jack with them during and after Civil war, why would they use well now?


    Quote Originally Posted by XPac View Post
    Dealing with Diablo probably isn't at the top of the P5's priority list... because frankly it's Diablo. Still, if he were to do something of substance it's possibly they might put him ahead of "fixing" the San Andreas fault (which frankly is a horrible idea). That's kind of my point... you don't necessarily want to be on their radar... hence laying low.

    As far as villains taking advantage... again, I think that was sort of the point of Dark Reign. With heroes splintered from Civil War and removed from power after Secret Invasion, the villains ended up getting the upperhand for awhile in Dark Reign. An opening was created, and they kind of filled in that power vacuum for a bit.
    Except Dark Reign only happened because the US government and public are insane morons. I liked parts of Dark Reign, but how it happened is a huge plot hole, its like if Charles Manson killed bin Laden and because of that he was put in charge in the CIA and FBI, that wouldn't happen. Dark Reign happened because the US filled with insane idiots in the MU, not due to any cleverness on Norman's part.

    The P5 are busy with Sinister and the Avengers, aren't they too busy to deal with someone like Diablo causing problems in a part of the world the heroes hardly ever seem to visit anyway. Plus Mad thinker is pretty good with subtle schemes, what is stopping him from doing something?
    Last edited by The Master Meglomaniac; 07-29-2012 at 09:07 PM.

  14. #59
    Elder Member celticguy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Master Meglomaniac View Post
    Most connections don't work once you have committed very public crimes. Bernie Madoff will never get a position with the government after the stuff he pulled and Norman committed way worse, on TV. So that explanation doesn't work.

    Besides can you think of any villains who did anything directly during Civil war when the heroes were fighting each other?

    I would love to see some unused villains get the spot light, but if the writers did jack with them during and after Civil war, why would they use well now?
    If you insist on using real world comparisons. Think more of Whitey Bulger working with the FBI even though they knew he had killed even helped him cover up. Or if you want an example of a crook getting a law enforcement job look no further than Frank Abagnale who is probably collecting a government pension by now.

    In fiction it is more like a dirty dozen senerio His "friends" that got him on the team probably did not expect him to live long enough to cause trouble. He did not have a lot of wins at that point.

    As I said Hood built up his group at that time which was shown after the fact and Kingpin got rid of Hammer Head but that is all that springs to mind.

    I also would like to see some villians dusted off and I hope they will. No matter what happens I hope it is different from the end of CW if for no other reason I don't want to read anything to do with CW ever again.

    Red Skull is back in UA maybe his plan has been in the works with all the AvX stupidity has been going on.

  15. #60
    Elder Member XPac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Master Meglomaniac View Post
    Most connections don't work once you have committed very public crimes. Bernie Madoff will never get a position with the government after the stuff he pulled and Norman committed way worse, on TV. So that explanation doesn't work.

    Besides can you think of any villains who did anything directly during Civil war when the heroes were fighting each other?

    I would love to see some unused villains get the spot light, but if the writers did jack with them during and after Civil war, why would they use well now?




    Except Dark Reign only happened because the US government and public are insane morons. I liked parts of Dark Reign, but how it happened is a huge plot hole, its like if Charles Manson killed bin Laden and because of that he was put in charge in the CIA and FBI, that wouldn't happen. Dark Reign happened because the US filled with insane idiots in the MU, not due to any cleverness on Norman's part.

    The P5 are busy with Sinister and the Avengers, aren't they too busy to deal with someone like Diablo causing problems in a part of the world the heroes hardly ever seem to visit anyway. Plus Mad thinker is pretty good with subtle schemes, what is stopping him from doing something?
    Sure, Dark Reign didn't necessarily happen because the villains caused it... just like they didn't cause Civil War or AvX. But in the case of Dark Reign, the took advantage of an opportunity in a power vacuum.

    But that's not necessarily an option if AvX. The circumstances are difference, and not necessarily in favor of the villains. Again, the P5 have proven capable of dealing with a variety of things besides Sinister and the Avengers... we've seen Colossus spend time growing wheat in a field. So it's not like they don't have the time in theory to deal with a few villains IF they villains make themselves credible enough threats to get on their radar.

    Again, I'd argue they're probably better off waiting until after the P5 are taken down. The X-Men and Avengers will likely still be in bad shape for a short window of time, and you won't have to risk throwing down with cosmic beings. Doom would risk that... but he's more the exception than the rule.

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