Has Marvel diluted its villains by featuring the heroes as villains so often?

[Mark_S]

The only thing more played out than the "hero as the villain/villain as the hero" schtick is the message board posters crying about it. ;-)

I'm not really complaining, just asking if the villains of marvel are no obsolete due to the fact that I believe the heroes as villains are far more effective and menacing than the actual villains ever were or ever could be.

Mark_S

[CyberHubbs]

I agree that the villains are being wasted. As I mentioned the Absorbing Man used to be someone to be worried about. When was the last time anyone was worried about Doom? With SHIELD being run by HYDRA why do you HYDRA at all?

Mark_S

Gillen's Thor run?

Creel fought Slott's Mighty Avengers and later Pym and the Avengers Academy kids. He's also fought Thor one-on-one way back in the day. It doesn't take the entire MU to beat Creel every single time.

[CyberHubbs]

I'm not really complaining, just asking if the villains of marvel are no obsolete due to the fact that I believe the heroes as villains are far more effective and menacing than the actual villains ever were or ever could be.

Mark_S

Not really. The heroes aren't trying to outright kill people in many cases. It ends up being a misunderstanding, or everyone hugs in the end. The villains would still see the heroes -- and people in general -- dead on a faaaaarrrrr more regular basis.

[tigerkaya]

While I am not disagreeing with you that I am sick of it, it its not "new". Heroes vs heroes has been around for a long time.

I'm aware it existed. Heck I used to like it, but recent writers have become favoritism with VS these days there's no real plausibility anymore on how the win.

[Lord Bravery]

Someone should do a deconstruction story of the hero vs hero trope. A story where a bunch of villains team up to cause trouble whilst all the heroes are fighting amongst themselves.

Civil War should have ended similar to how Marvel Ultimate Alliance 2 the video game ended. With a big threat that unites all the heroes. Maybe Kang coming back from a time where the Civil War caused an apocalypse or something.

[neohuey89]

I can't speak for everybody, but growing up everyone I knew was excited about heroes vs heroes. the only thing I don't like about the stories of Civil War and AvX is that in some cases it's made to be one sided in the battles both morally and physically. I wish AvX would have had a point where the teams encountered each other how Mighty Avengers and New Avengers interacted after Civil War or how the New Avengers clashed with Dark Avengers. I think these teams vs teams events need to be more like Dark Reign than a Civil War. Let these battles have time to be epic. Example the battle of Utopia alone should have looked like Siege.

[Ravin' Ray]

I agree that the villains are being wasted. As I mentioned the Absorbing Man used to be someone to be worried about. When was the last time anyone was worried about Doom? With SHIELD being run by HYDRA why do you HYDRA at all?

He was very nearly triumphant in Doomwar and successively took on the X-Men, Dora Milaje, and Fantastic Four and only lost in the end when T'Challa deactivated all the vibranium, and even then it could be considered a pyrrhic victory.

[XPac]

He was very nearly triumphant in Doomwar and successively took on the X-Men, Dora Milaje, and Fantastic Four and only lost in the end when T'Challa deactivated all the vibranium, and even then it could be considered a pyrrhic victory.

Yeah, I think Doom is sort of an exception to the rule (and Thanos to a degree is another).

Marvel goes out of their way to make Doom look good. He lost Doom War, but still came off looking pretty darn formidable. The Doctor Voodoo mini was another example. Again, the hero won (as they always do), but Doom still came off looking like a million bucks.

Doom is a character that marvel across the board does make an effort to protect. And I think you can argue certain other villains should be treated that way too. Maybe not to the same degree.... but villains need credibility in order for a story to really pop. And Doom's one of the few that have that. Even if he usually loses in the end too.

[fedup23]

I'm not really complaining, just asking if the villains of marvel are no obsolete due to the fact that I believe the heroes as villains are far more effective and menacing than the actual villains ever were or ever could be.

Mark_S

I know..I was just messin around. :-)

[Mark_S]

Yeah, I think Doom is sort of an exception to the rule (and Thanos to a degree is another).

Marvel goes out of their way to make Doom look good. He lost Doom War, but still came off looking pretty darn formidable. The Doctor Voodoo mini was another example. Again, the hero won (as they always do), but Doom still came off looking like a million bucks.

Doom is a character that marvel across the board does make an effort to protect. And I think you can argue certain other villains should be treated that way too. Maybe not to the same degree.... but villains need credibility in order for a story to really pop. And Doom's one of the few that have that. Even if he usually loses in the end too.

yea, but with Doom you get a feeling of danger that I don't get from most of the others. The Red Skull and Ultron retreads that are coming up to me have very little menace in them. I mean it's the Red Skull. He's killed Cap already hasn't he? Not to mention the number of times he has died himself.
The point is that the Red Skull can say to Cap "I'm going to round up all of the superheroes and put them in a prison." and Cap can say "You mean like Iron Man or the P5 did?" and the sense of danger and menace pretty much ends right there. When those who are supposedly heroes can out do the villains to the point where the villains plots merely mirror the heroes plots what level of menace and danger do the villains really bring to the table?

Mark_S

[Zero Hunter]

I think it has more to do with Marvel constantly trying to reform all their villains. This is more a problem with the X-men though honestly.

The big thing is the overuse of certain baddies that makes them seem not as important when you see them every few months. Sort of like Doom,the Sinister Six, Galactus, or the Red Skull. We have just seen them so much in the last 5 years its hard to really get excited when they show up now.

[The Black Guardian]

I think it's hurt the heroes more than the villains.

[XPac]

I think it has more to do with Marvel constantly trying to reform all their villains. This is more a problem with the X-men though honestly.

The big thing is the overuse of certain baddies that makes them seem not as important when you see them every few months. Sort of like Doom,the Sinister Six, Galactus, or the Red Skull. We have just seen them so much in the last 5 years its hard to really get excited when they show up now.

I'd be okay with marvel reforming a FEW villains here and there, if they didn't occasionally make a few heroes into villains and make it actually stick.

There are so few class 100 villains these days, because they're all reforming. Juggernaut became a good guys (though he sort of goes back and forth). Red Hulk became a good guy. Goliath became Atlas and became a good guy. Gladiator (who I guess was never that much of a villain to begin with, though he always seemed to get stuck with villainous emperors) became a good guy. Abomination died and was replaced by a Abomb. There's like no one left for guys like Hulk to fight.

[Zero Hunter]

I agree with that. I didn't mind the Beetle reforming in Thunderbolts because they had some other start using his old suits as villains. Problem is they just never get used.

[nosocialize100]

I don't know if you can "water down" the villains because heroes are the "villains" in stories. Typically when a hero is a "villain" it's not so cut and dry. It's actually pretty complicated why they're viewed as the villain. It's just different. If anything it's a misunderstanding or a conflict of interest, rather than an all out need to stop someone due to their beliefs.

Really what it comes down to is good writing. Iron Man or Dr. Doom, if the writing is good it doesn't matter who the villain is.