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  1. #91
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    It was hero VS hero in appearance only with regards to SI. We all knew that we were dealing with Skrulls, so each and every hero was to be suspected as a potential Skrull. Yes, heroes were corrupted by the hammers in FI, but the 'big bad' was the Serpent, and the main focus of the event was most certainly the threat he and his army presented world wide. Remember when Grey Gargoyle turned to stone all of Paris? I'd wager that was pretty bad. The Sentry, who I consider a villain (though I suppose there are those will argue the point), ripped Ares in half, destroyed Asgard, and if not for Loki probably would have done plenty more damage. Red Skull took Captain America off the map for a long while after he "killed" him. Bastion murdered Nightcrawler. I mean, there are plenty of examples of acts taken by villains that are extremely heinous and rival the examples you've given, but I think the added bit that it was heroes who did the things you continue to bring up make them seem worse.

  2. #92
    Uncanny X-Fan Shingen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    Assuming the bad guys are worth fighting.

    Mark_S
    Absolutely. They need to really put in work to make compelling villains, so they don't have to resort to Hero vs Hero.
    "That's the thing about the Phoenix. There always has to be destruction... Before rebirth. " - Scott Summers

  3. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    I hesitate to post this since I'm sure I'm known as a negative fan and thus my opinions will be discounted by many. But I see no harm in asking and I think that this is a valid question.

    I've thought this for a while. After the civil war storyline I thought that the Red Skull should have just packed it in, Tony Stark destroyed Captain America and his ideals far more completely than the Skull ever came close to doing. Same with Dr. Doom, with the negative zone prison Reed Richards outdid him in sheer callousness as far as human rights go. Arnim Zola on his best day couldn't whip up Clor like Tony and Reed and Hank did (though I should leave Hank out because he was a skrull). Wanda was a greater threat to mutants than any Sentinel and Quicksilver was about as slimy as you can get when he manipulated his crazy sister into altering reality. AIM, HYDRA and the other criminal groups could never help blow up a world like the Illuminati did to Hulkworld and now with the sadism demonstrated by Magick and Danger in AvX I don't see anyone like Viper even competing with them.
    I agree with this completely, really. However... The Illuminati did not blow up Hulk's planet. Miek had sabotaged the ship's core to create the explosion because he had been so focused on revenge and fighting his whole life, he couldn't just accept peace. He needed another battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    It does, but we have seen the heroes as villains play for keeps, with Tony trying to murder the Hulk in WWH. The point is that Tony came closer than anyone to murdering the Hulk. Specially designed weapon, rigged battle field... full army available if it didn't work...
    Stark wasn't trying to murder Hulk. He was trying to lock up him under the guise of protecting the public, but Hulk was never after the public, just The Illuminati. In all honesty, they should've just manned up and gone to another planet to fight him, taking their punishment. That specially designed weapon wasn't designed to kill, but disable Hulk's powers. The battlefield wasn't rigged either. They fought in the park.

  4. #94
    Veteran Member Juggernaut Punch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emissary of Justice View Post
    Stark wasn't trying to murder Hulk. He was trying to lock up him under the guise of protecting the public, but Hulk was never after the public, just The Illuminati. In all honesty, they should've just manned up and gone to another planet to fight him, taking their punishment. That specially designed weapon wasn't designed to kill, but disable Hulk's powers. The battlefield wasn't rigged either. They fought in the park.
    As far as Stark knew Hulk was after the public. He was leading an alien invasion force. They didn't even know the Hulk wasn't after anyone else until the end when he revealed that he hadn't hurt any innocents and that he just wanted the world to know what assholes they were. And meeting him off world wasn't an option either. They didn't even know what was going on until after Hulk was finished with Black Bolt on the Moon and sent the message that unless the Illuminati met him in New York, he'd fuck up the whole planet like he did with Black Bolt.

  5. #95
    Veteran Member Juggernaut Punch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    I'm not saying that they haven't been villainous, I'm saying that on their best day they aren't being written as villlainous as the heroes are when the heroes are written as the villains. The skrulls had no chance in SI and every one pretty much knew that. Also since you didn't know who was who at first it was hero/hero. As I recall a few heroes were currupted by the hammers in FI. Norman did nothing in DR that Tony Stark didn't do first and better in cw. The others you mentioned were villainous, but really how many of them came close to Clor or Cape Killers or 42 or Magick's current torture palace?


    Mark_S
    You're still ignoring the heroes motivations. The villains tend to make personal attacks against the heroes families or innocents in order to exploit their weaknesses but when its hero vs hero its strictly business. When heroes are written as "villains" in events, they're doing bad for the greater good (they never harm innocents, they never attack their enemies families, they never try to kill the other heroes).

    When the Illuminati sent Hulk away it wasn't just to fuck with him because they're evil, it was because as far as they knew he was just destroying things at random and repeatedly putting innocents in danger. Hell he wasn't even supposed to end up in Sakaar, he was supposed to end up in a peaceful world with no one to fuck with him because as far as the Illuminati knew, that was all he ever wanted.

    Cap and Stark were two sides of the same coin during Civil War. They both risked civilians and fellow heroes lives by fighting because not only were they fighting in public areas, they were leaving villains unattended. Hell, Cap realizes this in the end thats why he surrenders. The entire point of Civil War was that there weren't any villains, both sides were fighting for their ideals and both had valid points. And like I wrote earlier, Clor was a mistake. You're treating it as if they intended for Clor to kill Bill Foster. They had no idea he was going to react like that, Clor was just supposed to be a blunt instrument like any other of the weapons or robots they used. But they fucked up and someone got killed. That happens, heroes make mistakes that doesn't make them villains.

    The Skrulls were the obvious villains in Secret Invasion, you can't complain that the heroes were undermining the villains in that event. Just because we knew they didn't win doesn't mean anything. We always know the heroes win. It was always hero vs villain in Secret Invasion, we just didn't know if every hero was who they said they were. Again, this doesn't undermine villains in the slightest. No hero did anything questionable or out of the ordinary.

    You're honestly comparing Norman to Tony? Norman ruthlessly murdered anyone that threatened his image as a hero, made sure actual villains like Loki, Doom and Hood had free reign under his rule as long as they stopped when he told them to, employed super villains and psychopaths as heroes when the real heroes refused to work with him and constantly manipulated people in order to make himself come out on top. Sure, in his own twisted way he was trying to keep the world safe but that was ALWAYS secondary to his own schemes. He allowed villains and terrorists free reign (hell he ORDERED villains and terrorists) in order to manipulate public opinion of himself. Tony made some controversial calls as head of SHIELD but he was always doing it because he thought it was the best move. He wasn't anywhere close to Norman.

    You make it seem as if the villains live their entire lives in order to fuck with the heroes and now that someone else did a better job of it, they might as well pack their bags. Except for rare cases when its a matter of a personal grudge (like Eddie Brock as Venom for example) villains always have a scheme or plan which the heroes happen to oppose. Most of them wouldn't give two shits about the heroes otherwise, hell a lot of them even try to get the heroes to side with them (Magneto, Apocalypse etc). Unless a hero goes completely over the edge and becomes a villain in every sense of the world (i.e. doesn't do bad things for good but does bad things for worse reasons) they are never better villains than actual villains.

  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_S View Post
    What can the villains have in store for the heroes that is worse than what the heroes have had in store for each other these past few years? Death for the Red Skull is like death for the Joker or death for any comic book character: it's a vacation. Understand it is not that I don't think that the marvel writers aren't talented or aren't going to try, I just find it hard to believe that they can ever write a villain worthy of the title after showing that villains are second best when it comes to dark deeds when put beside the heroes. I think that the speciality of the marvel writers and what they really enjoy is taking a hero and turning him into a villain. They are great at that, but I have yet to read a story since they started down this path that features a villain who is in any way the equal of the hero turned villain. Their heroes as villains are prime time, their villains as villains are early Sunday morning syndication.

    Mark_S
    Then maybe it's time to reassess how many of the villains are villains, and how many are just heroes with different agendas? How about some of the heroes fall over the Ozymandias villain-cliff and some of the villains become anti-heroes? Most people don't have the same viewpoints and motives their whole life, after all.

  7. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut Punch View Post
    You're still ignoring the heroes motivations. The villains tend to make personal attacks against the heroes families or innocents in order to exploit their weaknesses but when its hero vs hero its strictly business. When heroes are written as "villains" in events, they're doing bad for the greater good (they never harm innocents, they never attack their enemies families, they never try to kill the other heroes).
    I'm not arguing intent, I'm stating that when the hero uses the methods to get the same basic results of the villains then there ceases to be any real difference between them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut Punch View Post
    When the Illuminati sent Hulk away it wasn't just to fuck with him because they're evil, it was because as far as they knew he was just destroying things at random and repeatedly putting innocents in danger. Hell he wasn't even supposed to end up in Sakaar, he was supposed to end up in a peaceful world with no one to fuck with him because as far as the Illuminati knew, that was all he ever wanted.
    Their incompetance asside they helped cause the destruction. If they hadn't sent him out into space then Sakaar would have continued as it was, un-happy I'll grant you, but many would still be alive. If the shuttle hadn't been there there wouldn't have been an explosion. To date I have yet to see any remorse for the lives lost from any of the Illuminati. Also they-as you point out-appointed themselves as a government/judgement body over the Hulk, just like Doom has appointed himself a governing/judgement body over the planet Earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut Punch View Post
    Cap and Stark were two sides of the same coin during Civil War. They both risked civilians and fellow heroes lives by fighting because not only were they fighting in public areas, they were leaving villains unattended. Hell, Cap realizes this in the end thats why he surrenders. The entire point of Civil War was that there weren't any villains, both sides were fighting for their ideals and both had valid points. And like I wrote earlier, Clor was a mistake. You're treating it as if they intended for Clor to kill Bill Foster. They had no idea he was going to react like that, Clor was just supposed to be a blunt instrument like any other of the weapons or robots they used. But they fucked up and someone got killed. That happens, heroes make mistakes that doesn't make them villains.
    Again, intent does not negate the action. Clor was intended to terrorize the anti-regs into submisison. Just like any Doom battle robot. And if you can't see the villainy in cloning a dead friend or the conditions in 42 then ok, you can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut Punch View Post
    You're honestly comparing Norman to Tony? Norman ruthlessly murdered anyone that threatened his image as a hero, made sure actual villains like Loki, Doom and Hood had free reign under his rule as long as they stopped when he told them to, employed super villains and psychopaths as heroes when the real heroes refused to work with him and constantly manipulated people in order to make himself come out on top. Sure, in his own twisted way he was trying to keep the world safe but that was ALWAYS secondary to his own schemes. He allowed villains and terrorists free reign (hell he ORDERED villains and terrorists) in order to manipulate public opinion of himself. Tony made some controversial calls as head of SHIELD but he was always doing it because he thought it was the best move. He wasn't anywhere close to Norman.
    Aside from out and out murder can you tell me one thing that Norman did that Tony didn't do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Juggernaut Punch View Post
    You make it seem as if the villains live their entire lives in order to fuck with the heroes and now that someone else did a better job of it, they might as well pack their bags. Except for rare cases when its a matter of a personal grudge (like Eddie Brock as Venom for example) villains always have a scheme or plan which the heroes happen to oppose. Most of them wouldn't give two shits about the heroes otherwise, hell a lot of them even try to get the heroes to side with them (Magneto, Apocalypse etc). Unless a hero goes completely over the edge and becomes a villain in every sense of the world (i.e. doesn't do bad things for good but does bad things for worse reasons) they are never better villains than actual villains.

    I disagree. Again when you have the heroes do the same thing as the villains then you don't need the villains. Do you need Doom to throw anyone into hell when Magick has already done it? Do you need Ultron to create an army of menacing robots when Tony has already cloned Thor with the same intent? Do you need Hydra when SHIELD agents routinely use the same methods? The mu has progressed to the point where they don't need villains to fight the heroes, they have heroes to fight the heroes. Betrayal comes very easily to the heroes of the mu, I don't think we've seen one big event go by without some sort of betrayal. Just like the villains loyalty is conditional. So are principles and laws to follow. In that last the villains are actually superior to the heroes on a moral scale since they are honest enough never to follow principles and laws while the heroes follow them only so long as it is easy and then discard them when conditions make it too hard for them to keep them.

    Mark_S
    Last edited by Mark_S; 08-04-2012 at 07:42 AM.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emissary of Justice View Post
    Stark wasn't trying to murder Hulk. He was trying to lock up him under the guise of protecting the public, but Hulk was never after the public, just The Illuminati. In all honesty, they should've just manned up and gone to another planet to fight him, taking their punishment. That specially designed weapon wasn't designed to kill, but disable Hulk's powers. The battlefield wasn't rigged either. They fought in the park.
    No, I re-read the issue. First Tony make the whole "I did it to save the planet" speech, then he hit Hulk wit the spin tech he had tested on She-Hulk and then ordered in a missile strike. He wanted the Hulk dead.

    Mark_S

  9. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mundungus View Post
    I think Kieron Gillen said it in a recent Uncanny X-Men issue best.

    When Colossus approaches Cytorrak, the demon who has imbued him with the Juggernaut powers, asking to step down as his avatar the demon refuses, telling Colossus that the heroes cause more havoc and destruction than the villains do. And since Disassembled-present, that's really been the case.
    The Avengers has 3 villains, maybe four if you include Doom but I more consider him a TonyStark/Fan4 villain. They have Kang, Ultron, Loki....the rest are practically nobody when they compare to the really messed up 'heroes', Simon, self righteous Ironman, an Antman when he's wrote like a scumbag, a Hulk who goes on a rampage and takes out the bronx, self righteous Cap, Sentry, Wanda

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