Getting into Conan, The Barbarian; have questions

[shaxper]

Just got back from a great family vacation on which I brought the Barry Windsor-Smith Archives of Conan vol. 1 along for the ride. I'd been meaning to get into Conan based upon several emphatic recommendations, and I really enjoyed it. So I have questions about where to go next:

1. Should I make some attempt to read these in order (I've seen minor points of continuity at this point, but nothing Earth-shattering)? I have scattered Savage Sword of Conan issues in my collection, as well as some Kull and some King Conan, and also volume #0 of Kurt Busiek's run. Can I read these in any order, or am I missing a lot by doing so? Are there any critical Conan issues or eras that I should be sure to read?

2. I saw that the first Kull solo story was printed as part of Conan #10, but it was not reprinted in the Archive edition I was reading. When I start reading Kull, will I miss much by beginning with Kull #1?

3. Are there other essential Sword and Sorcery titles (Elric, Red Sonja, etc?). I'm not looking for a list of enjoyable reads, but more of a "if you don't read this, you're missing something just as good as, or even superior to, Conan."


Thanks in advance!

[MRP]

In the original Conan reading experience, i.e. the pulp stories by Robert E. Howard-the stories were published in a haphazard order, as Howard told stories he wanted without regard as to where in Conan's career they occurred, in fact he only had a broad idea of what Conan's career arc was. Several fans who corresponded with him would send chronologies of the stories and such, and Howard himself wrote an essay on the Hyborean Age detailing the sweep of history in Conan's world.

It wasn't until well after Howard's death that the stories were collected and presented in "chronological order" by L. Sprague de Camp and others. When Marvel got the license, they followed that chronological order for the most part in Conan the Barbarian, but simply told stories spanning Conan's career in Savage Tales/Savage Sword.

I have read large chunks of Conan in published order and I have read stories in chunks as I acquired them without reading them in order. I have enjoyed the experience both ways, so I would say you can do either based on how you like to read things. Based on your review threads I would hazard a guess you like to read things in order, so go for that if you like. But if you just read large chunks in random order I don't think you will be missing out.

What I would suggest though, as much as I love Conan comics, is checking out the original Howard stories if you never have-and his Hyborean Age essay (which appeared in some issue of Savage Sword as well I believe).

As for other sword & sorcery, I actually prefer Kull and Solomon Kane to Conan in prose, but aside from the 2 parter by Chaykin that appeared in Marvel Premiere, I have been less enamored of Kane in comics, and the Kull books are a mixed bag. The early issues of the first Kull series are very very good, but the series meanders in the middle taking Kull away form the concept that defined his character i.e. being king.

Of the Dark Horse stuff-the Busiek-Nord Conan is phenomenal, and I would read it in order so to speak as Busiek develops the character as he grows and experiences new things. You can skip most of the minis DH did, they are a mixed bag (though I love PC Russell on Jewels).

I would say Conan is pretty much the quintessential sword & sorcery comic, with others being a variation on a theme. I don't know any others that would be "must read" but I am currently reading and enjoying Grell's run on Warlord.

-M

[Aaron King]

1. Should I make some attempt to read these in order (I've seen minor points of continuity at this point, but nothing Earth-shattering)? I have scattered Savage Sword of Conan issues in my collection, as well as some Kull and some King Conan, and also volume #0 of Kurt Busiek's run. Can I read these in any order, or am I missing a lot by doing so? Are there any critical Conan issues or eras that I should be sure to read?

3. Are there other essential Sword and Sorcery titles (Elric, Red Sonja, etc?). I'm not looking for a list of enjoyable reads, but more of a "if you don't read this, you're missing something just as good as, or even superior to, Conan."

Like MRP said, the Dark Horse Conan stuff is much more continuity-dependent than the Marvel stuff. With Marvel, if you understand that Conan started as a thief nobody and eventually became king, you'll be set.

For other sword & sorcery stuff, I really love the Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser stuff written by Howard Chaykin with art by Mike Mignola. I've always loved those characters more than Conan, and I think the comics are great adaptations.

[MRP]

Like MRP said, the Dark Horse Conan stuff is much more continuity-dependent than the Marvel stuff. With Marvel, if you understand that Conan started as a thief nobody and eventually became king, you'll be set.

For other sword & sorcery stuff, I really love the Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser stuff written by Howard Chaykin with art by Mike Mignola. I've always loved those characters more than Conan, and I think the comics are great adaptations.

Ah yes...I'll second those Chaykin/Mignola tales as some excellent stuff. Of course I like the F&GM stories form DC's Sword of Sorcery as well.
-M

[shaxper]

In the original Conan reading experience, i.e. the pulp stories by Robert E. Howard-the stories were published in a haphazard order, as Howard told stories he wanted without regard as to where in Conan's career they occurred, in fact he only had a broad idea of what Conan's career arc was. Several fans who corresponded with him would send chronologies of the stories and such, and Howard himself wrote an essay on the Hyborean Age detailing the sweep of history in Conan's world.

It wasn't until well after Howard's death that the stories were collected and presented in "chronological order" by L. Sprague de Camp and others. When Marvel got the license, they followed that chronological order for the most part in Conan the Barbarian, but simply told stories spanning Conan's career in Savage Tales/Savage Sword.

Fascinating. Thanks for the background. I was truly hoping that you would be one of the responders to this thread and very much appreciate your lengthy response!

Based on your review threads I would hazard a guess you like to read things in order, so go for that if you like.

"like" might be the wrong word. It's more an obsessiveness born out of my own need for perfectionism combined with growing up on Chris Claremont's X-Men, I suspect. Either way, it's a lot more work for me to read it chronologically. I don't like to do so unless I'm convinced there's some reward in doing so. I'm still trying to figure out whether Conan is one of those "Pay attention and you'll appreciate this more" titles or a "shut off your brain and enjoy" titles. Certainly, with only eleven issues down, we've already got Thoth-Amon, Zukala and Zephyra, and Jenna, all lurking around and waiting to re-emerge in later stories, but perhaps those later stories don't require a knowledge of prior history in order to enjoy them. From what you've said, it sounds like they don't.

So there aren't any major Conan storylines or eras that are more critical than others? Thomas' 200 issue tenure is pretty consistent throughout, and the Dark Horse stuff is of similar caliber?

What I would suggest though, as much as I love Conan comics, is checking out the original Howard stories if you never have-and his Hyborean Age essay (which appeared in some issue of Savage Sword as well I believe).

I've already begun considering it. Really, I'm not sure how in love I am with Conan yet. I love the tone and sheer imaginative fancy, but it feels more like "fun" reading than "essential" reading for me, thus far -- not sure I love it enough to take the time to read Howard's original novels yet, but perhaps as I read more and come to appreciate it even better.

As for other sword & sorcery, I actually prefer Kull and Solomon Kane to Conan in prose, but aside from the 2 parter by Chaykin that appeared in Marvel Premiere, I have been less enamored of Kane in comics, and the Kull books are a mixed bag. The early issues of the first Kull series are very very good, but the series meanders in the middle taking Kull away form the concept that defined his character i.e. being king.

Of the Dark Horse stuff-the Busiek-Nord Conan is phenomenal, and I would read it in order so to speak as Busiek develops the character as he grows and experiences new things. You can skip most of the minis DH did, they are a mixed bag (though I love PC Russell on Jewels).

Noted. Thanks.

For other sword & sorcery stuff, I really love the Fafhrd & the Gray Mouser stuff written by Howard Chaykin with art by Mike Mignola. I've always loved those characters more than Conan, and I think the comics are great adaptations.

Don't know anything about this, but I adore Mignola, so I will probably check this out. Thanks!

[/QUOTE]

[benday-dot]

Like MRP said, the Dark Horse Conan stuff is much more continuity-dependent than the Marvel stuff. With Marvel, if you understand that Conan started as a thief nobody and eventually became king, you'll be set.

Indeed. Howard's first ever Conan story, "The Phoenix on on the Sword" actually had Conan already as king of Aquilonia. It was only later that he went back and told of the Cimmerian's youthful career as reaver and move towards conquest.

Howard started with Kull in 1929. Conan came later in 1932. Kull's career mirrored Conan in that the hallmark of his story was that he he was a barbarian who had become king in an ancient and corrupt civilized world.

It was always the idea of the uncivilized self-made man, free from the decay and stench of the sterile and rotting city that was at the core of Howard's thought, so that after he abandonded Kull, whose adventures were largely as king, I think Howard, when he returned to the sword and sorcery milieu with his Conan wanted to start over and focus on the "virtues" roving and free booting barbarian.

Bottom line, as Aaron and MRP, state is that if you get this simple trajectory you can read in any order. The continuity in Marvel is loose, but with Thomas obviously respecting Howard's stories. Dark Horse is much tighter, and progressive.

[benday-dot]

So there aren't any major Conan storylines or eras that are more critical than others? Thomas' 200 issue tenure is pretty consistent throughout, and the Dark Horse stuff is of similar caliber?

The greatest Howard stories to me are A Witch Shall be Born, Red Nails, Queen of the Black Coast, Tower of the Elephant, Black Colossus, Rogues in the House and Scarlet Citadel.

All these get covered in time in the Marvel books, but in the Conan the Barbarian comic the centrepiece of Thomas' storytelling over the first 100 issues is the great sweep of the story with the "she-pirate" Belit, whose tale Howard's tells in the fantastic "Queen of the Black Coast". Thomas, weaves in and out of this great romance and adventure over roughly issues 58-100.

[MRP]

Indeed. Howard's first ever Conan story, "The Phoenix on on the Sword" actually had Conan already as king of Aquilonia. It was only later that he went back and told of the Cimmerian's youthful career as reaver and move towards conquest.

Howard started with Kull in 1929. Conan came later in 1932. Kull's career mirrored Conan in that the hallmark of his story was that he he was a barbarian who had become king in an ancient and corrupt civilized world.

It was always the idea of the uncivilized self-made man, free from the decay and stench of the sterile and rotting city that was at the core of Howard's thought, so that after he abandonded Kull, whose adventures were largely as king, I think Howard, when he returned to the sword and sorcery milieu with his Conan wanted to start over and focus on the "virtues" roving and free booting barbarian.

Bottom line, as Aaron and MRP, state is that if you get this simple trajectory you can read in any order. The continuity in Marvel is loose, but with Thomas obviously respecting Howard's stories. Dark Horse is much tighter, and progressive.

Even moreso, Phoenix on the Sword is a reworking of an unsold Kull story called By This Axe I Rule.

As for the Thomas era for me the highpoint is from the introduction of Belit until her exit from the series in #100 that benday-dot mentions-it is this era that Dark Horse is now exploring in their Brian Wood written Conan the Barbarian series.

Thomas also used a lot of Howard's non-Conan stories and adapted them into Conan tales (a practice inspired by what de Camp and Carter did in the Ace series.

One quick note shaxper-most of the Howard originals are short stories, with a few approaching novella length. There is only one novel length adventure which was serialized in a number of issues of Weird Tales initially. So if you check out an original you do not need to invest in an entire novel.
-M

[shaxper]

One quick note shaxper-most of the Howard originals are short stories, with a few approaching novella length. There is only one novel length adventure which was serialized in a number of issues of Weird Tales initially. So if you check out an original you do not need to invest in an entire novel.
-M

Then I'm definitely interested. Can you recommend a particular volume?

Edit: Never mind. Found a one volume edition on Amazon containing all the stories and ordered it. Thanks!

[MRP]

If you check out REH, do the originals, unabridged and unedited by de Camp and Carter. The most affordable is the 3 volumes of Conan from, Del Rey, The Coming of Conan, The Conquering Sword of Conan, and The Bloody Crown of Conan-they collect the stories in publication not chronological order. Any of the three will give you a good sample of them. They include fragments and notes for unfinished/unpublished stories.

The unabridged REH is also collected in a 2 volume set publishe din the UK from their Fantasy Masterworks series. Vol. 1 is called People of the Black Circle and Vol. 2 The Hour of the Dragon. These collect the stories in roughly chronological order. I picked these up from AmazonUK before the Del Reys were published in the US. Del Rey also has single volumes of Kull and Solomon Kane-plus many other REH stories/characters.

-M

[shaxper]

If you check out REH, do the originals, unabridged and unedited by de Camp and Carter. The most affordable is the 3 volumes of Conan from, Del Rey, The Coming of Conan, The Conquering Sword of Conan, and The Bloody Crown of Conan-they collect the stories in publication not chronological order. Any of the three will give you a good sample of them. They include fragments and notes for unfinished/unpublished stories.

The unabridged REH is also collected in a 2 volume set publishe din the UK from their Fantasy Masterworks series. Vol. 1 is called People of the Black Circle and Vol. 2 The Hour of the Dragon. These collect the stories in roughly chronological order. I picked these up from AmazonUK before the Del Reys were published in the US. Del Rey also has single volumes of Kull and Solomon Kane-plus many other REH stories/characters.

-M

This is what I ordered. The reviews seemed pretty favorable and indicated that it does not use the edited versions. It also includes The Hyborian Age essay and Cimmeria poem, which the three volume set did not.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/057...ls_o00_s00_i00

[MRP]

Cool. Looks good. I had not seen that one before, but then I have so many collections and so many versions of the stories that I stopped looking for new ones. As long as it is the original Howard texts, you're good. My first exposure was the comics then the Ace paperbacks with the Frazetta covers but the de Camp and Carter edited versions. I still like them for what they are and serving as my intro to sword & sorcery, but they change and dilute the Howard experience of Conan.

-M

[CromagnonMan]

The key eras for me are :

Barry Smith & Roy Thomas on Marvel's Conan the Barbarian # 1-24

This is the cornerstone of Marvel's Conan and is probably best to read first

Savage Tales and Early Savage Sword of Conan

I would say the 1st TPB collection of SSOC is essential reading. This has A Witch is Born, Black Collossus and others. It also collects the main stories from the first few Savage Tales.
Roy Thomas was on SSOC up to around #60 so all this is recommended, although it gets less good IMO after the 1st dozen or so issues.

Late Conan the Barbarian

Roy Thomas return to the character. Although nowhere near early CTB or SSOC still good and a continuity freak like yourself should find plenty to enjoy. Just read it, you know, after the early stuff.

Late Savage Sword of Conan

For me, late SSOC by Roy Thomas is better than later CTB. I believe a lot of these tales are originals as opposed to the REH adaptations of his earliar run. Also great John Buscema art. The first couple of story arcs run for consecutive issues and are highly recommended. Also #200 has a nice REH story about how he got the inspiration for Conan (entirely fictional i believe). RT's return in SSOC is from #191-235(series end). The earlier part of the run is the best and most easily available, so id start there. The 1st couple of arcs are great. You could actually start from around #180 as there are some good stories by other writers which lead up to RTs return.


There could well be other good stories but i have yet to read quite a bit of the non-RT stuff. There is certainly plenty of average and sub-par stuff as well though.

Marvel's Conan can be enjoyed out of sequence perfectly well, the SSOC stories are all over the place chronologically anyway. RT CTB should be read in sequence moreso than SSOC i feel.

then move on to the Dark Horse Kurt Busiek run. But i'd definately read the Marvel stuff first.

[CromagnonMan]

This is what I ordered. The reviews seemed pretty favorable and indicated that it does not use the edited versions. It also includes The Hyborian Age essay and Cimmeria poem, which the three volume set did not.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/057...ls_o00_s00_i00

that is the book i have. Its not exactly premium format but its a cheap compendium. I think you are right that it is unedited. Apparently the hardcore fans prefer the 3 volume Del Rey set, they do over at the Conan boards anyway.

there is also a sister volume to that cheap compendium you bought, called Conan's Brethren. This contains all the non-Conan REH stories about Kull, Solomon Kane, Bran Mak Morn etc.

[prince hal]

Shax, the previous posters have said all I would have. I just wanted to second the recommendations for "Red Nails" (story and comic) and "Rogues in the House," while tossing in a vote for "Beyond the Black River," which is Conan as Hawkeye from Last of the Mohicans.

Also, as happened with many of Howard's non-Conan tales, Roy Thomas adapted the "Shadow of the Vulture," set during the time of the Ottomans' siege of Vienna, IIRC, and which features Red Sonya, for his final arc (thought they didn't use that term then) with Barry Smith. John Buscema actually finished it off, and though his artwork was nothing to sneer at, of course, I and I'm sure many others, wished that Smith's run on Conan had ended in the blaze of glory it should have.