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  1. #31
    I'm a male DebkoX's Avatar
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    I dunno, I was surprised too in Arkham city when he said Rays Al ghoul.
    “The only thing standing between you and your goal is the bullshit story you keep telling yourself as to why you can't achieve it.”

  2. #32
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    Creator's decision has to take precedence, even over creator's possibly erroneous explanation of inspiration. One obvious precedent is Bette Middler, whose first name is pronounced "Bet" even though her mother said she was naming her after Bette Davis, whose first name is pronounced "Betty". So it really doesn't matter how "Head of the Demon" is pronounced in any real world language or dialect; Denny says the character's name is pronounced "Raysh", and "Raysh" is therefore by definition correct.

  3. #33
    Bishop was right. Sighphi's Avatar
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    Rash Al Ghul.

  4. #34

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    There should be a sticky on this, as it comes up every once in a while.

    The correct pronunciation is "Ra-ees."

    But, if you want to go by Denny O'Neil's incorrect pronunciation, he was erroneously given the pronunciation "Raysh" after creating the character. It's also the pronunciation used in DC's cartoons.


    Quote Originally Posted by Knight12ify View Post
    Dude, do you know anything about Arabic? For all we know the word could have had a Persian origin and you still call it Arabic. It has a middle eastern origin, more like a literal Iran/Iraq origin meaning that the word would have had about a 45% chance to be Arabic. And don't just say its Arabic because its Iraqi, there are other languages there.

    Oh and dude, Arabic is technically a family of languages INCLUDING Modern Standard Arabic.

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    I wouldn't know whether the words originally stemmed from Farsi ("Persian") or Arabic, but in Farsi the character's first name would be pronounced "Ra-ees" and his last name would be pronounced "Ghoul-e." Farsi doesn't contain the usage of "El" or "Al," which is used in Arabic.

    In Arabic, which is what the character's name is supposed to stem from, it's pronounced "Ra-ees" "Al" "Ghoul."

    I've talked to Arabs from various countries about the word "Ra's," none of them had ever heard the pronunciation of "Raysh" for that word and all said it's pronounced "Ra-ees."

    That said, forum member Kate Fatale mentioned having an Arab friend who pronounced it "Razz."



    Quote Originally Posted by Deason View Post
    Creator's decision has to take precedence, even over creator's possibly erroneous explanation of inspiration. One obvious precedent is Bette Middler, whose first name is pronounced "Bet" even though her mother said she was naming her after Bette Davis, whose first name is pronounced "Betty". So it really doesn't matter how "Head of the Demon" is pronounced in any real world language or dialect; Denny says the character's name is pronounced "Raysh", and "Raysh" is therefore by definition correct.
    That's rather quaint. If Superman was created by a non-English speaking comics writer, and he didn't know how to pronounce the word "Super" and instead pronounced it as "Supper" (Resulting in the character's name being pronounced Supper Man), would you insist English speaking readers pronounce the character's name that way?

    btw, your response seems eerily familiar, lol:

    http://forums.comicbookresources.com...=#post13649208

    In that thread, someone mentioned the pronunciation "Raysh" means "feather" in Arabic. If that's the case, I'll cut & paste what I responded to you with in that thread I linked above:


    If you insist on having Ra's Al Ghul be "the feather of the demon," then, by all means, more power to you.




    There was also a forum member by the name of MaJunior who responded to you, in that same thread, with this:

    Except that O'Neil didn't simply choose to pronounce it that way, but instead years later had his daughter ask someone in the UCLA Language Dept. how to pronounce the name. O'Neil just assumed what he was told was right and went with it. I understand the idea of the creator deciding a pronunciation, but this just appears to be a case of ignorance.

    And also the name had been written in the comic books for twenty years before O'Neil's pronunciation appeared in the Animated Series, giving readers and other writers time to come to their own conclusions; I don't think Denny O'Neil owns the character. Not to mention the character's name had been spoken in outside media prior to the cartoons in places like the BBC Radio Drama 'The Lazarus Syndrome' in 1989. And now of course there are the Nolan films.

    So I don't really think it's as simple as one writer choosing what to call a fictional character.
    Last edited by Christopher Cross Is God; 07-23-2012 at 04:18 PM.

  5. #35
    Senior Member PretenderNX01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Cross Is God View Post
    T
    I wouldn't know whether the words originally stemmed from Farsi ("Persian") or Arabic, but in Farsi the character's first name would be pronounced "Ra-ees" and his last name would be pronounced "Ghoul-e." Farsi doesn't contain the usage of "El" or "Al," which is used in Arabic.

    In Arabic, which is what the character's name is supposed to stem from, it's pronounced "Ra-ees" "Al" "Ghoul."

    I've talked to Arabs from various countries about the word "Ra's," none of them had ever heard the pronunciation of "Raysh" for that word and all said it's pronounced "Ra-ees."

    That said, forum member Kate Fatale mentioned having an Arab friend who pronounced it "Razz."
    Well, there we go. It's not Ray-sh at least. And we don't know that Denny wanted Raysh above having it pronounced correctly, maybe we should all right to him and see if he'd answer.

    For what it's worth, Wiki says: Ra's al Ghul (Arabic: رأس الغول‎, Raʾs al-Ġūl "Demon's Head")
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%27s_al_Ghul

  6. #36
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    If "Bette" Midler is allowed to be pronounced "Bet", even though she was named for a "Betty", Denny gets to define the pronunciation of the character's name.

    If it's not "Raysh", how can it be "Bet"? Only by throwing consistency away.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deason View Post
    If "Bette" Midler is allowed to be pronounced "Bet", even though she was named for a "Betty", Denny gets to define the pronunciation of the character's name.

    If it's not "Raysh", how can it be "Bet"? Only by throwing consistency away.
    Bette intentionally pronounces her name that way.

    Denny attempted to find out how Ra's is correctly pronounced, but was given an incorrect pronunciation.

    It's really not that complicated, there's a stark difference between those two situations......But, like I said, previously, if you insist on having Ra's Al Ghul be "the feather of the demon," then, by all means, more power to you.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Cross Is God View Post
    Bette intentionally pronounces her name that way.

    Denny attempted to find out how Ra's is correctly pronounced, but was given an incorrect pronunciation.

    It's really not that complicated, there's a stark difference between those two situations......But, like I said, previously, if you insist on having Ra's Al Ghul be "the feather of the demon," then, by all means, more power to you.
    Actually, the pronunciation of Bette Middler's name was chosen by her mother, not herself, and even though it's an incorrect pronunciation of Bette Davies' name (after whom the child was named), it's still by definition the correct pronunciation of Bette Middler's name. It doesn't alter the correct pronunciation of Bette Davies, it doesn't make Bette (in Middler) a correct copy of Bette (in Davies), but the parent gets to decree the pronunciation of (and) the name of the child. And the author gets to decree the pronunciation of (and) the name of the character.

    Those parents in recent decades who try to name their kids "Lincoln" and "Georgia" and fill in the birth certificates with "Linkin" and "Jorja" are in the same boat. It may well be an incorrect copy of the original inspiration, but it is nevertheless by definition the correct spelling of *that kid's* name.

    "Stark difference"? I'd say structurally identical. Which of the suggested values for X and Y below don't work in the following?

    "X names Y and chooses the pronunciation of Y's name, giving a reason. The choice made may be inconsistent with the given reason, but that does not alter the choice made, nor the right of X to make the choice." X = {Parent/Author} Y = {Child/Character}

    A faulty reason for making a decision does not alter the historical fact of a decision being made, right?

  9. #39

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    LOL, what a futile attempt at justifying your choice of pronouncing Ra's Al Ghul.

    Bette Midler intentionally pronounces her name differently than the intended pronunciation by her parents.

    Denny O'Neil intended to use the correct pronunciation of Ra's Al Ghul, received incorrect third-hand information of the name years after he created the character, and incorrectly stuck with that pronunciation because he didn't know any better.

    If you don't see a difference there, then you can continue putting your hands to your ears while whistling as loudly as you can, all the while pronouncing Ra's Al Ghul with a laughably incorrect third-hand western pronunciation (Which also ends up with a different meaning, lol).

  10. #40
    Elder Member Karl O'Neill's Avatar
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    In The Dark Knight Rises Bruce says "Ras".

    I was thinking the same.
    "You can't trust them as poets either. The true poet is anonymous, as to his habits, but these boys have to look, act, and apparently smell like poets"
    Flannery O'Connor on the beats.

  11. #41
    Senior Member adkal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Cross Is God View Post
    LOL, what a futile attempt at justifying your choice of pronouncing Ra's Al Ghul.

    Bette Midler intentionally pronounces her name differently than the intended pronunciation by her parents.

    Denny O'Neil intended to use the correct pronunciation of Ra's Al Ghul, received incorrect third-hand information of the name years after he created the character, and incorrectly stuck with that pronunciation because he didn't know any better.

    If you don't see a difference there, then you can continue putting your hands to your ears while whistling as loudly as you can, all the while pronouncing Ra's Al Ghul with a laughably incorrect third-hand western pronunciation (Which also ends up with a different meaning, lol).

    ...there are moments where I have to recheck to make sure I didn't post that and your earlier posts...

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher Cross Is God View Post
    LOL, what a futile attempt at justifying your choice of pronouncing Ra's Al Ghul.
    Not my choice, Denny's choice. I didn't listen to all the possibilities and decide which one I liked best. Logically, Denny is the only one who gets to choose. As author, he has the authority to choose a pronunciation of a character he named. I don't, nor do you. Nor do you have the authority to tell all the Linkins and Jorjas their names are spelled incorrectly. Denny has chosen, and crying "foul" or "mistake" or "he should have chosen THIS" does not undo his choice.

    Bette Midler intentionally pronounces her name differently than the intended pronunciation by her parents.
    Bette Middler pronounces her name as her parents chose, even though their choice doesn't follow from their stated reasons. Reasons behind a choice do not trump the historical fact of the choice.

    Denny O'Neil intended to use the correct pronunciation of Ra's Al Ghul, received incorrect third-hand information of the name years after he created the character, and incorrectly stuck with that pronunciation because he didn't know any better.
    Bette Middler's mother intended to use the correct pronunciation of Bette Davis' name for her daughter but didn't know any better. Nevertheless, the name was chosen, and bleating about it being incorrect after the fact does not rewrite history.

    Denny as author gets to make the choice; no one else has anywhere near as much right to. The quality of and history behind his choice is irrelevant in a discussion of the identity of the decision actually made by the only individual entitled to make it. (Note that I'm not arguing about the correct pronunciation of the phrase, but of the character's name)

    I don't think your LOL's add anything to the strength of your argument, by the way.

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Deason View Post
    Not my choice, Denny's choice.
    It's your choice to follow Denny's mistake. Therefore, it is your choice, by free will, unless someone is holding a gun to your head and forcing you to take that option.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deason View Post
    Logically, Denny is the only one who gets to choose. As author, he has the authority to choose a pronunciation of a character he named.
    Denny chose to find out the correct pronunciation of the word. Therefore, it should be Ra-ees, whether you like it or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deason View Post
    Nor do you have the authority to tell all the Linkins and Jorjas their names are spelled incorrectly. Denny has chosen, and crying "foul" or "mistake" or "he should have chosen THIS" does not undo his choice.
    No one's crying foul, nor saying he should have chosen something else. You're grasping for straws in your inane side of the discussion.

    As for "misspelled" names, a misspelling is far different than a mispronunciation. Also, when it comes to naming a child in real life (Which is a bit different than naming a fictional character, which makes your examples all the more hilarious), there are various points of origins for certain names, so variations in spellings occur. Then there are people who simply choose to go for a made-up spelling variation.




    Quote Originally Posted by Deason View Post
    Bette Middler's mother intended to use the correct pronunciation of Bette Davis' name for her daughter but didn't know any better. Nevertheless, the name was chosen, and bleating about it being incorrect after the fact does not rewrite history.
    It's her own name, she and her parents can pronounce it however they want. She's not a fictional character.



    Quote Originally Posted by Deason View Post
    Denny as author gets to make the choice; no one else has anywhere near as much right to.
    Incorrect. He doesn't own the intellectual property. If DC chose to have the name pronounced differently (Which they apparently allowed in the Nolan films), then it's their prerogative.

    Regardless, it was Denny's choice to find the correct pronunciation of the word. Therefore, I will respect Denny's original intent and pronounce Ra's Al Ghul the correct way, while you can go for your whitebread, ignorant westernized pronunciation.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deason View Post
    The quality of and history behind his choice is irrelevant in a discussion of the identity of the decision actually made by the only individual entitled to make it.
    I entirely disagree. The quality of and history behind his choice is completely relevant to the discussion, for the identity of the decision was made with an intent to bring accuracy to the name by the individual who created the character.


    Quote Originally Posted by Deason View Post
    (Note that I'm not arguing about the correct pronunciation of the phrase, but of the character's name)
    No, you're arguing about both, for they go hand-in-hand.



    Quote Originally Posted by Deason View Post
    I don't think your LOL's add anything to the strength of your argument, by the way.
    They brought enough strength for you to make note of them. My only intent was to let you know I was laughing at you, "by the way."

  14. #44
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    So many errors, where to begin?

    "As for "misspelled" names, a misspelling is far different than a mispronunciation."

    And an apple from tree A is far different than [sic] an apple from tree B? Are they not both errors?

    "naming a child in real life (Which is a bit different than naming a fictional character"

    Why is it different? Naming a child, a dog, a newly discovered chemical element or a fictional character are just multiple instantiations of exactly the same function ("Assign_Name()", say), operating on different subjects. If you disagree (what are the odds?) perhaps you can give reasons? Or perhaps not.

    I don't suppose you know the history of the naming of the polarities of electricity, since by your lights if you were aware of it, I'd expect you to be leading a campaign to switch the positive and negative labels in every text book, on every circuit diagram and battery and device in history.

  15. #45
    Elder Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Let's try to keep things civil.

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