Journey Into Mystery #641 *Spoilers*

[motherofpearl1]

I've just finished reading 'Blood Brothers' and I can honestly say I now hate Thor! I wish Loki would grow up and join Uncanny Avengers instead of his irritatingly judgemental adopted bro. UA already has two ex villains, why not a third? Please don't kill him off Gillen - even if you are pissed off at being booted off UXM!

Uncanny Avengers should be more about the 'grey' characters than the 'wholesome hero' types - I find Thor and the good Captain odd choices for a comic which includes the Scarlet Witch, Rogue, Wolverine and Havok. And as for those who claim Loki is a bad guy who has done terrible things - he redeemed himself at the end of Siege. Unlike Magneto, White Queen, Sebastian Shaw, Dr Nemesis and half the cast of X Men!

[Rosebunse]

I've just finished reading 'Blood Brothers' and I can honestly say I now hate Thor! I wish Loki would grow up and join Uncanny Avengers instead of his irritatingly judgemental adopted bro. UA already has two ex villains, why not a third? Please don't kill him off Gillen - even if you are pissed off at being booted off UXM!

Uncanny Avengers should be more about the 'grey' characters than the 'wholesome hero' types - I find Thor and the good Captain odd choices for a comic which includes the Scarlet Witch, Rogue, Wolverine and Havok. And as for those who claim Loki is a bad guy who has done terrible things - he redeemed himself at the end of Siege. Unlike Magneto, White Queen, Sebastian Shaw, Dr Nemesis and half the cast of X Men!

Again, "Blood Brothers" was from Loki's point of view. To make matters worse, it's clear in that story that Loki isn't really in his "right" mind.

As for his suicide in Siege, it was sorta clear that it was a part of his plan to die and be reborn. I'm sure he probably realized the Void was over-kill, but I guess he knew it was the only way to kill himself and make it look believable.

And maybe Thor will bad about something when he comes out of "Everything Burns"? Maybe he feels guilty for letting Loki, his little brother/son, be in that situation to begin with.

[satchmo the dragon]

So why kill yourself. I hope gillen has a good reason for this.

[Rosebunse]

So why kill yourself. I hope gillen has a good reason for this.

He killed himself because he hated how predictable he had become and either wanted to change himself or just die. By writing himself out of Hela's book of death, it insured that he couldn't just come back to life again, as Hela often gave him a "get out of Hel free" card because he's her dad or something like that.

[seekquaze]

Watching an old episode of BBC-produced Kenneth Clark's Civilisation that discussed the Vikings, I had the thought that kid Loki's problem is that, unlike his previous youth with young Thor, kid Loki does not have the possibility of being a kinsman with anyone. He is too young and immature to be a permanent companion to the older gods, yet he cannot associate with teen gods his own physical age. What Thor fondly remembers, perhaps incorrectly, is that there was a time in their youth when Loki could function as a kinsman.

The image I have is like the Norse who set out in their boats with a few kinsmen on long voyages of discovery, conquest, and plunder, the Marvel Norse gods expect to sally forth in small groups to have epic adventures, to return home, and to brag about them afterwards drinking mead in their great halls. Their teens are expected to similarly band together in small groups and have adventures such as shown recently where Thor and his youthful companions were somehow expected to hold off the hordes of Hel all by themselves for days.

At this point Loki simply has no one left to function as a peer, a kinsman of his age. What Thor overlooked when he brought Loki back in this form is that Loki would have no one to be a peer with, because Thor just innately due to his strength and nobility finds peers wherever he goes. I think either kid Loki goes to become a younger Avenger in training or he reverts back to older Loki. There is no other place for him.

In the past it has been made clear that even though the Vikings worshipped the Asgardians there are aspects of each culture that are not true for others. Viking raids and beards are not part of Asgardian culture. At the same time, I think you are largely right. Given how often we see beings in groups and how most would have to be part of a group to survive in the harsh Asgardian world. Other teens will not accept Loki because he is Loki. Volstagg probable does not want Loki near his family because in many ways Loki is still the old Loki. A liar and manipulator. Volstagg, who is as kindly and forgiven as any Asgardian, grew up or at least watched the old Loki grow up and do monsterous things for centuries. He has seen first hand that young Loki is capable of doing questionable things. So he would want to protect his family by keeping from Loki since Loki whether due to his nature or cursed seems to bring pain to all those around him.

I think there was a time where Thor and Loki did go on those adventures. But it goes back to the old problem of Thor always being the hero and outshining Loki for reasons already discussed in length. Those adventures were a minor time in Loki's long life that he only remembers as Thor overshadowing him. Thor focuses upon them because he wants to remember Loki as good and those were the only times they did have. Thor was never in anyone's shadow and may never have realized to the negative effect it had on Loki. As a kid he certainly would not.

If Loki is to form social bonds he needs peers who do not view him as a reincarnation of evil incarnate. Asgard is certainly not that place. If he does not find peers otherwise it will be like you said and we get evil Loki. Asgard does not trust or accept Loki because of his history of lies and deceit yet Loki engages in lies and deceit. Inevitable, this isolation would create the same feelings of hatred old Loki felt and a need to focus on getting stronger magic to show up others if not to survive.

[Post Monster]

In the past it has been made clear that even though the Vikings worshipped the Asgardians there are aspects of each culture that are not true for others. Viking raids and beards are not part of Asgardian culture. At the same time, I think you are largely right. Given how often we see beings in groups and how most would have to be part of a group to survive in the harsh Asgardian world. Other teens will not accept Loki because he is Loki. Volstagg probable does not want Loki near his family because in many ways Loki is still the old Loki. A liar and manipulator. Volstagg, who is as kindly and forgiven as any Asgardian, grew up or at least watched the old Loki grow up and do monsterous things for centuries. He has seen first hand that young Loki is capable of doing questionable things. So he would want to protect his family by keeping from Loki since Loki whether due to his nature or cursed seems to bring pain to all those around him.

I think there was a time where Thor and Loki did go on those adventures. But it goes back to the old problem of Thor always being the hero and outshining Loki for reasons already discussed in length. Those adventures were a minor time in Loki's long life that he only remembers as Thor overshadowing him. Thor focuses upon them because he wants to remember Loki as good and those were the only times they did have. Thor was never in anyone's shadow and may never have realized to the negative effect it had on Loki. As a kid he certainly would not.

If Loki is to form social bonds he needs peers who do not view him as a reincarnation of evil incarnate. Asgard is certainly not that place. If he does not find peers otherwise it will be like you said and we get evil Loki. Asgard does not trust or accept Loki because of his history of lies and deceit yet Loki engages in lies and deceit. Inevitable, this isolation would create the same feelings of hatred old Loki felt and a need to focus on getting stronger magic to show up others if not to survive.

Even on Earth, it's a bad because Loki's reputation is pretty well known; he's going to have to hold back in the beginning and see who's open to being friends with him. After everything he's been through recently, I don't see him being quite so cheerful and social. I could, say, see him and other trickster characters getting along fairly well, but most of the straight men types aren't going to trust him as far as they can throw him. Even if he is adorable and grows on you like moss.

[Rosebunse]

Even on Earth, it's a bad because Loki's reputation is pretty well known; he's going to have to hold back in the beginning and see who's open to being friends with him. After everything he's been through recently, I don't see him being quite so cheerful and social. I could, say, see him and other trickster characters getting along fairly well, but most of the straight men types aren't going to trust him as far as they can throw him. Even if he is adorable and grows on you like moss.

As for him being sociable and cheerful, I think it's all going to revolve around how he comes out of "Everything Burns". If he does something where Thor KNOWS he's the hero, it's going to be quite different than if he continues with doing everything in secret.

Then again, in all fairness to Miss A, he did trap her in a horrible other dimension where she was almost killed. Granted, I bet Gillen will give him a good reason for doing so, but if she wants to hate him for a few issues, I'll let her. However, I think it would be cool if she became like a big sister to him.

[seekquaze]

Even on Earth, it's a bad because Loki's reputation is pretty well known; he's going to have to hold back in the beginning and see who's open to being friends with him. After everything he's been through recently, I don't see him being quite so cheerful and social. I could, say, see him and other trickster characters getting along fairly well, but most of the straight men types aren't going to trust him as far as they can throw him. Even if he is adorable and grows on you like moss.

Would other tricksters work though? Could he trust them? Could they trust him? Would they be trying to out trick him? What better way to bolster their own egos? If anything I could see that making things worse.

Then again, in all fairness to Miss A, he did trap her in a horrible other dimension where she was almost killed. Granted, I bet Gillen will give him a good reason for doing so, but if she wants to hate him for a few issues, I'll let her. However, I think it would be cool if she became like a big sister to him.

Could you please inform me as to what you are referring to?

[Rosebunse]

Would other tricksters work though? Could he trust them? Could they trust him? Would they be trying to out trick him? What better way to bolster their own egos? If anything I could see that making things worse.

I agree! Loki knows he can hardly trust himself, so how could he trust people he knows are like him? Farthermore, wasn't that one of old Loki's problems, that he hung out with people who were kinda like him, like Dr. Doom, and that sorta, you know, egged him into being more evil?

I think he need a good Straight Man to tell him,"No, I'm not your brother and I'm not taking your crap."

Could you please inform me as to what you are referring to?

That Joe Casey's Vengeance #4, where kid!Loki trapped her in another dimension for reasons that were never really made clear.

[Post Monster]

Would other tricksters work though? Could he trust them? Could they trust him? Would they be trying to out trick him? What better way to bolster their own egos? If anything I could see that making things worse.

I think there would be a good bit of empathy between tricksters, or at least generous amounts of self restraint where trickery is involved since they usually get treated like crap by everyone around them. Take Parker, who is at least partly a trickster in his own right, and Loki. They've gotten along very well, and Loki was actually very polite to him and treated him well. And this was back with "evil" Loki. I got the feeling from that whole comic (and later from JiM) that Loki deals mostly fairly with folks who show him some respect. He might do some lying or tricking, but he does less of it and it isn't malicious. What Loki needs is folks he can trust who he can rely on without worrying about being stabbed in the back or abandoned when he needs them. The hate and mistrust at this point just creates more of the behavior everyone hates.

Obviously, the Mephisto variety aren't going to, but then, Meph is actually evil. Other characters with playful trickster natures rather than malicious ones would probably really like Loki.

[seekquaze]

I think there would be a good bit of empathy between tricksters, or at least generous amounts of self restraint where trickery is involved since they usually get treated like crap by everyone around them...What Loki needs is folks he can trust who he can rely on without worrying about being stabbed in the back or abandoned when he needs them. The hate and mistrust at this point just creates more of the behavior everyone hates.
.

I think you state the problem with this idea. Tricksters get treated like crap generally due to tricking everyone. No one trusts them after centuries of being made fools of or trusting them only to be betrayed or tricked. Another trait in tricksters is they are egotistical who for all their cleverness can be surprisingly short-sighted. Their very nature as tricksters makes having to worry about being stabbed in the back as something you have to worry about. Loki's betrayal of the old regime in Otherworld to the Manchester gods is prove of this. Worse when other tricksters would suspect Loki would be plotting something and would probable be angling to strengthen their own pantheons.

[Rosebunse]

I think you state the problem with this idea. Tricksters get treated like crap generally due to tricking everyone. No one trusts them after centuries of being made fools of or trusting them only to be betrayed or tricked. Another trait in tricksters is they are egotistical who for all their cleverness can be surprisingly short-sighted. Their very nature as tricksters makes having to worry about being stabbed in the back as something you have to worry about. Loki's betrayal of the old regime in Otherworld to the Manchester gods is prove of this. Worse when other tricksters would suspect Loki would be plotting something and would probable be angling to strengthen their own pantheons.

Yep, it's all about trust. And the thing about tricksters is that they are usually tricksters partially because they don't trust people in the first place. Nope, what Loki needs is a non-trickster who can just be his friend. Someone on his level who can be straight with him. That's why Leah was so important to him; she was straight with him. He knew where he stood with her.

[jackolover]

The Problem is what Loki created, when Loki released the demon in Fear Itself. Because now, when the demon attacks the only one who can face him is Odin. If Odin is taken away from guarding Cul, then Cul can reanimate and become the Serpent again. Not much of a problem.

I don't see the connection between Hela getting her left hand healed back by the Holy Grail, and, the disappearance of Leah. How come Loki anticipated this and was sad?

[Rosebunse]

The Problem is what Loki created, when Loki released the demon in Fear Itself. Because now, when the demon attacks the only one who can face him is Odin. If Odin is taken away from guarding Cul, then Cul can reanimate and become the Serpent again. Not much of a problem.

Hm, an interesting idea...Except for then there will still be a big, bad, angry demon running around. Thor and Loki need to stop Sutur without Odin if they want to prove themselves to, well, themselves.

I don't see the connection between Hela getting her left hand healed back by the Holy Grail, and, the disappearance of Leah. How come Loki anticipated this and was sad?

After Hela lost her hand to the Dis, that hand was turned into Leah, so as to not be totally useless. By drinking of the Holy Grail, Hela was made whole, which meant that Leah returned to her. Loki realized what Leah was long ago and was sad that he had lost his BFF, who now is once again a part of Hela.

Now that I write that, I realize something; isn't all that was in Leah that Loki loved and cared about now in Hela? Or maybe was a part of her all along?

I'm telling you guys, Gillen is setting this up to be all about Hela and Loki! He needs to learn to love her for who she is, just as he needs to love himself for who he is.

[jackolover]

Hm, an interesting idea...Except for then there will still be a big, bad, angry demon running around. Thor and Loki need to stop Sutur without Odin if they want to prove themselves to, well, themselves.

I could see Surtur and Cul fighting, and Cul getting killed, while Surtur is again sent packing to Musselhiem, with no weapons.

After Hela lost her hand to the Dis, that hand was turned into Leah, so as to not be totally useless. By drinking of the Holy Grail, Hela was made whole, which meant that Leah returned to her. Loki realized what Leah was long ago and was sad that he had lost his BFF, who now is once again a part of Hela.

Now that I write that, I realize something; isn't all that was in Leah that Loki loved and cared about now in Hela? Or maybe was a part of her all along?

I'm telling you guys, Gillen is setting this up to be all about Hela and Loki! He needs to learn to love her for who she is, just as he needs to love himself for who he is.

When did Loki realize Leah was the left hand of Hela?